By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
21/05/2009
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| ripeka please understand reality. The children were caned as of the discipline of the day as was my grandfather for not speaking English - THE NORM OF THE DAY FOR HEAVENS SAKE. And yes seven years of tertiary study of the subject does giveme some idea of paranoia but PLEASE understand context not convenience!! |
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By: ripekaarmstrong
22/05/2009
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| jgini, with all the research thats been done on hegemony in education and the impacts its had on our people I cannot believe you could deny it had anything to do with the assimilation of Maori. That confirms my belief that you are totally blinded by ignorance. |
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By: mozzarella68
22/05/2009
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jgini:
"The education system was developed under a Eurocentric structure that was essentially designed to reproduce and perpetuate Pakeha dominance.
Get real this is the paranoia I was talking about
Sit back and listen to yourselves!!!!"
I would reccommend the following text to both ripeka and jgini from the book: Education and the Colonial Experience by Philip G. Altbach and Gail P. Kelly (1984)
Specifically the sections:
"Civilization and Assimilation in the Colonized Schooling of Native Americans."
"The Four Faces of Colonialism."
There is no doubt that the colonialisation process drives the colonised to adopt cultural practices that actually have nothing to do with their own heritage, and to
construct their own identities according to dominant culture stereotypes.
The key to understanding this process is to view it in the wider context of the colonisation of first nation peoples around the world.
It's easy to be dissmissive in the NZ context and say it's just how things were back then, as jgini argues, but the application of state sponsored assimilation via education in the wider context, based on the experiences of other first nation peoples demonstrates that the intent of the colonisers is the same wherever this practice is applied, i.e. to break down traditional social and political structures and culture in order to facilitate dominate and aquire territory as in the case of NZ, Australia, the US and Canada, or to gain access to resources for external consumption as in the case of colonial India. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
22/05/2009
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| the intent is where Iam questioning not the impact The education system is no doubt Eurocentric Colonisers will naturally continue their education practices They do so because it is their culture not with the intent of wiping out the cultural practices of anyoneelse The British were imbued with a cultural superiority concept They saw themselves as the rightful inheritors ofGreek philosophy and democracy (rather thanthe Greeks themselves)Hence Lord Elgin and co took Greek treasures ( and Egyptianones for that matter ) back to England withthe view that theywere going to their spiritual home. They saw themselves as doing people a favour rather than wiping out whatthey had. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
22/05/2009
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| the comment and what they did in those days was referring to the discipline Hence many Maori feel grievances for grandparents being caned for notspeaking English I dont feel any grievance for this Why should I? Kids were caned for being disobedient whatever it was That was the disipline of the day |
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By: ripekaarmstrong
22/05/2009
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| mozz, thanks for the reference, awsome reading on google, has inspired me to go buy the book. |
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By: ripekaarmstrong
22/05/2009
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| jgiini, You and I will always have this difference of opinion and even if you did read the book referenced below, you would find a way of white washing it. |
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By: hine_raumati@xtra.co.nz
22/05/2009
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Igini, What was the intent? Colonisation, assimilation, thieve-a-nation. Youve been told a number of different ways by a number of different people and if you still dont get it, then I dont know how else to tell you. Why bother to ask the question if youre not really looking for an answer. Youre just looking for another channel to reiterate your exact same message.
So in a nutshell, you dont feel any grievance for my elders who were stripped of their language and punished in school for using it. Thats fine, I get that! I feel no remorse for your elders who attended Catholic School and probably got caned with their heads under a desk and their pants around their ankles. Why should I? My elders suffered, not in that way but they were caned and thats just the way it goes.
The end. |
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By: comyn16
23/05/2009
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| The thieve a nation? What I find amazing that people a blind to the fact that all nations and cultures including the Maori were also trying to take resources, land from each other long before the colonization of the British Empire. Also there are many people they don’t realize one of the greatest conquest; colonization was not done by the white devils but was done by the Mongols. They conquered most of Asia, Persia and went all the way into Russia and Poland (I think they had rule for about 200–300 years) The Mongols took the same amount of land as the 19 century British empire by horse back. Yes the British Empire did colonize by many countries by ruthless, deceptive ways! In the history of human kind, generals, chiefs, warlords of all races would use any military tactics to get the so called upper hand, Maori included. It might be done through Alliances or treaties. Treaty and Alliances were broken all the time. I dont understand your point? The message I hear is the Colonization of the British empire took away customs of people of the countries and the it was replaced with the so called European values (go to Europe and your find they are very diverse). Yes that is what usually happens with conquest. Customs of Maori tribes also varied from tribe to tribe but were lost from other tribes the conquered them. Thats what happened in that time! Are you saying that people without Maori blood that are alive in 2009 are responsible, guilty for the conquest, colonization and generally the evils on Human kind? Are you saying that it is better to live in ancient times with out the influence of the so called white mans culture? |
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By: comyn16
23/05/2009
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hine
Education for the common person is fairly new in the scheme of things too. Most people in the 18 century could not read or write. It was for the selective few. If you could go back in time you would find that you would be hard pressed to have a conversation in English with somebody from the 18 century. Also dont forget British people did not all speak English. Irish, Scottish spoke Gaelic language and were punished for speaking there native tongue too. But times have changed and the English language is commonly used in Business for NZ and the rest of the world. In my opinion I doubt that Te reo being compulsory would enrich education or close the gaps for your people. By the way our people comment , I dont understand because I am white but I consider Maori my people too, Why? I have Maori neighbors, collogues, mentors and fantastic Maori friends that I cherish. I may not like/agree with everything about things in the Maori culture (also I dont agree/like things in my culture) but thats my opinion but I do like / love my Maori mates. In Malaysia the Bumiputra (same as the tangata whenua). Changed English to Bahasa Malay as the main language. If you talk to the Malays it did not help the young in education or in business but widened the gap. The Malays are now switching back to have the core subjects taught in English as the young are finding hard to find jobs because the young cannot speak English. To focus on another compulsory language at school will make it harder for Maori and Non-Maori students. You are assuming that everyone is as bright as you. I struggled through school. School is designed for the academic not the practical. So many students Maori and non-Maori fail because they are told they are dumb but they arent, their skills are usually more practical. I think more focus should be spent on this. |
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By: kymhewitson
24/05/2009
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| Comyn- good post but would have to disagree that its hard for children to learn another language at school..All my core subjects english maths chemistry etc. were tought in english and because Afrikaans (South African) was made compulsory by the apartheid goverment in S.Africa we had to learn it and today I can read write and speak another language fluently as it was taught to me through my primary and high school years and in fact a compulsory subject to pass to actually graduate..i dont regret it..and no I am far from being an academic but did work hard also I must tell you knowing a 2nd language is really beneficial coz I not only learned the language but also the culture, beliefs and history etc. of the oppressors or dutch south africans they werent all bad and even though its not useful overseas or it is sort of if I were to go holland, germany etc..I also find te reo not that hard to learn coz our vowels are pronounced similar and i have no problem rolling the old R's lol ImO it is easier to learn other languages if your're bilingual coz its easier to adjust other pronounciations and all the other stuff.... |
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By: mozzarella68
24/05/2009
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comyn16: "Are you saying that it is better to live in ancient times with out the influence of the so called white mans culture?"
Or, are you implying that only European culture progresses, while indigenous culture is hopelessly stagnant and perhaps even anti-progressive? That's what it sounds like to me.
Are you saying that, historically, education could not be transmitted within the cultural values of the recipient; or that recieving European education somehow precludes that one must also reject one's own culture?
If we're just talking about education, then is it not possible that the Pakeha could not have provided education within a Maori context and on Maori cultural terms? I mean, if one of the early goals of colonial education for Maori (and probably Pakeha too) was not to facilitate the extinguishment of Maori culture and cultural values, then why is there so much resistence toward te reo today? If these values had been embraced by Pakeha as something that had worth, then shouldn't we see this in contemporary Pakeha society?
We should, but we don't. Why? Because we have been taught not to place any real value on Maori language and culture save for international sporting events and visting dignitaries. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
24/05/2009
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| No hine you still haven't got it. No I don'tfeel grievance for your elders "stripped of language" ( like the thought police got you at home too!) just as I dont feel thesame for my own who lost their language, were caned for speaking it and now have no help unlike you for reinstating it etc The discipline ofthe day was caning for disobeying in schools end of story Your elders asked for their children to speak English in schools unlike mine who made no such request but it happened anyway.Why is all the responsibility on everyone else Noone stopped you speaking at home You are the one with an agenda andchannel to push theconvenient propaganda If you wish to make a grievance out of that then therewill always be grievancesin the world because anything can be turned into one. Myself sure I could go on about losing everything many times over family country etcetc but what'sthe point Go forward and see things as they are not as you wantthem to be |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
24/05/2009
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| In answer to your questions Mozz 19th century didn't go down that cultural track so it is useless to put today;s thinking on 2 centuries ago. Today there is quite a lot of education in a Maori context In schools it is cool to act and do Maori cultural stuff as this gets the kudos. as for the attitudes well a lot is a reaction, e;g; I have lost all interest in learning Te Reo from experience. I dont; appreciate being degraded, screamed at, having the haka done in front of me in a threatening way and made to stand in a cold courtyard during lunch hour because i got the pronunciation wrong. The reaction to a lot of this is why you see the anti attitude so take ownership! |
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By: mozzarella68
24/05/2009
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jgini: What "is useless to put today's thinking on 2 centuries ago" ?
This seems to be a repetative theme with you - whatever happend "2 centuries" is in the past, and therefore, out of reach forever and beyond redress today.
This is a convenient line or argument for you, but unacceptable to me. They didn't go down that cultural "track" because it wasn't in their interests to create a bilingual society and embrace Maori language and culture and to incorporate it as part of the education ciriculum for all NZ kids, just as it wasn't in their interests to inact the Treaty, which is why you like to use that line of argument for the that also, i.e. it happend too long ago so lets just forget about it.
I don't buy your paranoid delusions about being singled out for haka or being threatend in school. That's such a cop out and so many Pakeha use that as an excuse to be dismissive.
You don't think that maybe I got picked on at school by Pakeha kid's for being in "the oven too long" which is why I'm brown etc?
Get real jgini. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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mozzy logic seems to escape you I wasn;t singled out -thewhole class was thrown out in the courtyard and abused. What has that to do with "So many Pakeha" Is the abuse problem that major?Perhaps we should make claims then.Ok 2 centuries the British or whoever were here - your ancestors not mine anyway_ should have been insituting all modern day thinking - the only people on the planet to do so as it takes social evolution forthat to occur.
And shallall that Maori did be judged by the same standards? |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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| As for kids picking on kids at school - happens to just about everyone Teasing is a way of life at school. It's a little different to adults screaming 2 inchesaway from you face and manhandling you into a courtyard where threats continued for an hour. Do you actually expect withthat sort of performance people will wish to continue to learn Te Reo and will hold it in the honour you expect |
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By: walterhome@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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| te reo should be a home lesson issue not a school issue |
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By: madaxe01
25/05/2009
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jgini....Maori and the Government the Treaty and TOW are in place because WE ARE the Partnership that started and built this nation....
YES MAORI are in partnership , how ever that has not been honoured right up to today....
YES there was alot that happened and without MAORI moving forward with the GOVERNMENT WE as a race would have NOTHING....thats right just be ANOTHER race thats dictated to and lost to the generations of Maori that were born after...RIGHT now Maori are sitting in the box seat, finallly having a say....THATS moving FORWARD, it is the Government and mostly Pakeha in GOVERNMENT that have been dragged into the future and be held accountable....YOU have it completely the wrong way around....
It is Maori that have had to step back time and time again, give way to move forward, go through PAKEHA process to even be heard, and while doing that be ridiculed and treated like shyet....if you moved to AotearOA or are from another culture that has been put in the same situtation, where everything was taken over and changed ,
how can you hide in another country and jump on the same band wagon that has raped your own culture....what it doesnt concern you because your ashamed of who you are because of it and have now given all that you where including your families country away with out a fight , thrown in the toliet to became a New Zealand citizen... yet not or refuse to identify with MAORI....
anyone that throws away who they are for mind ..to adopt another way of life should be ashamed of themselves....
guess your good at that....
Be a very long day before you see MAORI ever investigating that road....axe |
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By: mozzarella68
25/05/2009
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jgini:
"mozzy logic seems to escape you I wasn;t singled out -thewhole class was thrown out in the courtyard and abused. What has that to do with "So many Pakeha" Is the abuse problem that major?Perhaps we should make claims then.Ok 2 centuries the British or whoever were here - your ancestors not mine anyway_ should have been insituting all modern day thinking - the only people on the planet to do so as it takes social evolution forthat to occur.
And shallall that Maori did be judged by the same standards?"
I have no idea what this means. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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"how can you hide in another country and jump on the same band wagon that has raped your own culture....what it doesnt concern you because your ashamed of who you are because of it and have now given all that you where including your families country away with out a fight , thrown in the toliet to became a New Zealand citizen... yet not or refuse to identify with MAORI....
anyone that throws away who they are for mind ..to adopt another way of life should be ashamed of themselves"
Where on earth did you get that from? Completely incorrect. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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| Let's just set this record straight People like me who have been disinherited and lost their land are supposed to support Maori What!! Against ourselves!! No Iam not ashamed of my background and willspendyears getting it back slowly Most of us do not have the luxury fo fighting for things as you sayMost who came here with nothing were lucky to get out alive. Think of ther Jews here. Yet we are blamed for Maori's losses in wars etc but are also supposed to support them. No selling out at all just getting on with it When you start from nothing that's the only way to go And don't think this is an isolated case Many of the Pakeha you rant about are in similar situations.Because they had to let go ( or go mad) their kids often know little but that also helps them adapt |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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I dont begrudge you guys your claims etc but amsick of getting blamed for them Are you responsible for mine? Neither of our ancestors were in the respective countries at the time but if one holds then... andbelieve me you would have much more to make reparation for i.e.everything
Of course you're not.
I just think you are just so caught up in your propaganda that you can't get perspective Yes you lost in the land wars etc but also you have still been accorded more than you accorded others AT THAT TIME whose land some of you took. I refer to north Wellington at this point where claims are made by the Ngati Toa but also by the Ngati Te Awa whose land it originally was until they were raped and pillaged bythe first tribe. Both have claims undertheTOW and apparentlyI amresponsible for both. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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| Also your belligerent attitudes to everything is putting everybody off. I dont need to get threatened with harm because I mispronounce Maori that I was endeavouring to learn. You make grievances where there should be none e.g.the caning for the language. this just makes me think that the grievances are wanted. You need to get on side with other New Zealanders not against them or we will have a Palestiian situation in the future where noone really remembers what it was all about |
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By: hine_raumati@xtra.co.nz
25/05/2009
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
Yesterday (11:30 am)
Igini, I think I finally understand you. The difference between my culture and your culture is I have the Treaty of Waitangi. My people still fight today to ensure the partnership and principles of the treaty are upheld. Youre a classic alright Igini! You come to my country after losing everything in your own and tell me that I should just get over it and move on. Mate, the reason Maori people are the most respected indigenous culture in the world is because we have fought and achieved things that no other indigenous race has been capable of. I dont know much about the Jews, history isnt my forte but I have taken a crash course to upskill myself. So your people have been persecuted from 250 C.E through to 1938-45, the holocaust and you left your old life and everything that made you uniquely Jewish behind in search of a better life in NZ. Now you think that if you are capable of accepting defeat and becoming another number in the majority so should Maori be. Well, I call that perfectly assimilated and of course you would think that because you have nothing more to lose and nothing more to gain. Unlike you though, Im not of the thought that my crash course in the persecution of the Jews qualifies me to pass judgement on their ways of life. |
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