By: quintensreturn
15/03/2009
2:09 pm |
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By: gam.wilson@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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Hi 6maxwell
If you are happy with your lot....fine... Free will is indeed a wonderful thing.. You get to say what you feel and I likewise..and as mature adults we repect each others point of views ..Hence we agree to disagree....dialogue with you ceases right here...Ciao!!..lol..!! |
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By: quintensreturn
15/03/2009
2:22 pm |
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By: tokoroajaq
15/03/2009
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Freewill - Scott Peck - Meditations from the Road :
If we can identify our mature free will with that of God, we will then have become one form of the grace of God, working on His behalf among mankind, creating love where love did not exist before, and pushing the plane of human evolution forward. |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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hi maxwell...I want to refer you to a comment post by bcfairlie this morning, in which he stated "everytime a non believer issues quoted text from the bible, the believers defend themselves by saying the non believers do not understand...What is the point of the book in spreading the word, if you already have to be converted to supposedly understand it?"
Now I quote from his post because he makes a fair point, IF he were correct. But he isn't, and nor are you.
Firstly the passage you quoted from Amos is from chapter 1 verse 13. Verse, not verses.
Secondly, the words "Because he ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead in order to extend his borders" is historical narrative, a statement of fact, not prophecy.
Now you could have ascertained that simply by reading the text. Have you even read the passage, or are you just accepting of your internet sources without question?
And so I repeat my challenge, which is go back and research the verses. If you find one that concerns you, post it. |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
3:07 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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hi maxwell...and while you're working on actually having a read of the verses you quoted, I'll give you some more to ponder.
In a recent post to tok you said the following:
<<With the bible and it's immorality and incorrectness, the thousands of different versions of Christianity, the fact that there's other religions, the fact that Jesus hasn't returned in the time frame he himself said he would, the fact that the universe is far grander and immense than any primitive man ever thought and yes, even the fact of evolution, all of this points to it being mere mythology.>>
So please answer me this:
1> Please provide the verse(s) where Jesus quoted a timeframe for His return.
2> Please provide a list of 10 different 'versions' of Christianity. Oh and not denominations, because these are differences in worship etc. I mean actual different versions, where key aspects of doctrine vary. You said there were thousands, so 10 should be easy.
3> Can you please explain why the following matters point to Chrisianity being mythology:
a> the presence of other religions.
b> the universe being far grander and immense than primitive man ever thought.
c> the 'fact' of evolution. (As you consider this, you might want to look up a Dr Francis Collins of human genome fame).
4> Finally can you answer whether you view atheism as mythology because there different strands of atheistic belief, because atheists disagree on evolution, or because athiestic evolutionists have lied and forged evidence for this belief.
I look forward to your answers. |
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By: 6maxwelll@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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deecee,
"Firstly the passage you quoted from Amos is from chapter 1 verse 13. Verse, not verses."
Yes, verse 13 and almost all the verses in Amos are prophecies. Amos is the third book of the minor prophets, it's also considered the oldest of the prophetic books in the Bible. |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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| hi maxwell...good, you've read the introduction, now have you read the verse yet? Do you concede that this is historical narrative? I'll post on the 2 Kings verse shortly. |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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now maxwell...2 Kings 15:16 reads "At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women."
Now you can read about Menahem in Encyclopaedia Britannica at http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/374639/M enahem, which supports the historicity of the Biblical account.
This is historical narrative max, it's quite common in the Bible. |
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By: 6maxwelll@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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deecee,
Now for your interesting questions.
1) Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Also found in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27
2)Fair enough, I should have said denominations. However the point still stands.
3a) Isn't this self-explanatory? How can you have more than one 'ultimate truth'?
3b) Because we now know the idea of stomping on stars to be rather silly (Daniel 8:10). We also know there isn't a firmament.
3c) Apart from this being an fallacious appeal to authority, Dr Francis Collins rejects intelligent design and accepts evolution. Stating that "Evolution is God's way of giving upgrades". Evolution shows that a deity didn't create all the animals in 'kinds' and that humans are part of the animal kingdom, pushing Christianity further into mythology.
4) I don't like the term atheist or atheism as they only state what you're not, they aren't religions, they shouldn't even be words. We don't have a words to define someone who doesn't believe in astrology. Also why the term 'evolutionist'? Do you want to call me a 'gravitonlist' too?
I hope I answered to your satisfaction, also do note how Gam proved my point about how faith allows people to immunize themselves from conversation. |
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By: 6maxwelll@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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deecee,
Now for your interesting questions.
1) Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Also found in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27
2)Fair enough, I should have said denominations. However the point still stands.
3a) Isn't this self-explanatory? How can you have more than one 'ultimate truth'?
3b) Because we now know the idea of stomping on stars to be rather silly (Daniel 8:10). We also know there isn't a firmament.
3c) Apart from this being an fallacious appeal to authority, Dr Francis Collins rejects intelligent design and accepts evolution. Stating that "Evolution is God's way of giving upgrades". Evolution shows that a deity didn't create all the animals in 'kinds' and that humans are part of the animal kingdom, pushing Christianity further into mythology.
4) I don't like the term atheist or atheism as they only state what you're not, they aren't religions, they shouldn't even be words. We don't have a words to define someone who doesn't believe in astrology. Also why the term 'evolutionist'? Do you want to call me a 'gravitonlist' too?
I hope I answered well enough, also do note how Gam proved my point about how faith allows people to immunize themselves from conversation. |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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Maxwell I'm looking at the verse on "Preteen child molestation" from Numbers 31:17-18.
Now here's a good case of your sources simply not reading and cross referencing the text.
The verses quoted are spoken by Moses to the officers of the army who had returned from revenge against the Midianites. Now Moses didn't really think they'd gone far enough, so he said "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
Now I can understand how, at first glance, this could seem like a simple case of taking off with the virgins. But only at first glance. If you go back to verse 16, there is a reference to "what happened at Peor". Are you remotely curious about the context? Well if so, go back to chapter 25 to find the answer. |
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By: 6maxwelll@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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deecee,
"Are you remotely curious about the context? Well if so, go back to chapter 25 to find the answer."
Yahweh was jealous because they worshiped Baal?
Numbers 25:3
"So Israel joined in worshiping the god Baal that was worshiped at Peor. The Lord's anger burned against Israel.
4 The Lord said to Moses, "Take all of the leaders of these people. Kill them. Put their dead bodies out in the open. I want to see you do it in the middle of the day. Then my anger will not burn against Israel."
5 So Moses spoke to Israel's judges. He said, "Some of your men have joined in worshiping the god Baal that is worshiped at Peor. Each of you must kill the men in your tribe who have done that."" |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
5:34 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Hi maxwell...now then:
1> Matthew 16:28 refers to the transfiguration, which happened only a week later in Matthew 17:1.
2> Well I'm not sure you could name a thousand denominations, but the point is moot. Does having several strands of atheistic or evolutionary thought of itself negate the validity of these ideas?
3a) You can't. But does that mean you can't have several CLAIMING ultimate truth? Isn't this 'free thought', just the same as there are several views on many aspects of science, philosophy etc.
3b) Now max you seem to have a problem understanding even basic literary themes. Daniel 8 is a prophetic vision by Daniel about the Medo-Persian empire, Greece and Alexander (which incidently came true). The passage actually begins "...I, Daniel had a vision...in my vision I saw myself...etc". Fairly clearly alegorical language.
3c) Well at least you looked him up, but you miss the point. Dr Collins is not just a theist, he is an evangelical Christian. And he has no problem reconciling the two. Indeed he explains it well in his book 'The Language of God'.
4> I'm not the slightest bit interested in defining atheism. I am rebutting your point, which was that because there are allegedly many different strands of Christianity, it is mythology. My challenge to you is to be consistent. There are different stands of atheistic thought. There are different strands of evolutionary thought. Does your logic make these invalid? A direct answer please. |
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By: deecee4@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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| hi maxwell...re numbers 25. Read through to verses 16 through 18. The Midianites were punished for their part in 'seducing' the Israelites into sexual immorality and the worship of Baal at Peor. Virgins were considered not a part of this, so they were spared. |
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By: mike_f596
15/03/2009
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bc ,, re -What is the point of the book in spreading the word, if you already have to be converted to supposedly understand it?
well firstly the book is , a book. it doesn't spread the word , people do .
2ndly re -What is the point of the book in spreading the word, if you already have to be converted to supposedly understand it?
well that is one of the points .
without faith it is impossible to please god and as faith is taking hold of that which is not as though it already is , faith is needed to understand or comprehend the book . seeing as you openly refuse to have such faith ,it is quite correct that some have said , you just don't understand the book .
you have chosen not to by choosing to not exercise faith . |
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By: mike_f596
15/03/2009
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good news
no one can say " I have never done wrong I am pure "
can that which has been done .. be undone ?
and if that which is done has been declared before it was done that it will result in death , what hope is there for the doer ?
There is Jesus , this wonderful hope ..- he who declared the law in the first place , then came and laid down his life on behalf of the doer .
. the law maker taking on himself the penalty of justice that was due the law Breaker .
cannot you consider that this God ,is not the cruel being that some so quickly attempt to paint him as .
if disobedience did not result in death as god said it would , then God would be a lair , this is not possible as god is true .
Justice demanded that mankind die as had been decreed before hand .
God knew this had to be so , but such was the love of the law maker , that he substituted himself in place of the law breaker , taking that punishment himself , he that had done no wrong bore the wrongs of many . |
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By: mike_f596
15/03/2009
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please consider that this is not the act of a big mean judge waiting to bash all with a stick .
can you imagine an earthly judge saying .. you have done such and such and the penalty is death by hanging , but, tell you what .Because I care for you and don't want you to die .. I will hang until dead on your behalf ..
yet this is what God has done
God is love |
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By: bcfairlie
15/03/2009
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deecee
You have not, in your reply, through maxwell, given me cause to consider my post incorrect.
But just as an aside, I always reference bible quotes by using an old fashioned device called a book. The bible itself.
I do not reference the bible online seperate to this thread.
Further, it maybe noticed that I have occassionally asked for a reference for a quote that has been posted by someone else on this thread.
I can assure you that I do then actually look it up, read it and invariably read quite a bit either side of a particular reference in order to try to put it in a correct context.
Often this has meant that I have NO reply to make.
Not all non believers are rambunctious on the subject of the bible. |
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By: bcfairlie
15/03/2009
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mike_f596
Your post to myself this evening is one of the most purile you have yet attempted.
The cleverer you try to be the more inane you appear to be.
By the way, yet again in your effort to put me down you have validated my point.
Ta |
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By: mike_f596
15/03/2009
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bc you should have a better opinion of yousrelf .. no one tried to put you down .
all i made is an observation that what "some one else" said is correct . |
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By: mike_f596
15/03/2009
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bc you should have a better opinion of yourself .. no one tried to put you down .
all i made is an observation that what "some one else" said is correct . |
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By: realityzgreat
15/03/2009
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| mike .. can you please refrain from repeating yourself .. one of you is too much for most of us to handle .. thank you |
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By: givetohimtoave
15/03/2009
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| this whole bloody thread and all it's posters repeat itself! |
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By: 6maxwelll@xtra.co.nz
15/03/2009
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deecee,
1) What's the son of mans kingdom? It also seems unlikely he was talking about the transfiguration due to the proximity of the event. Jesus seems to be talking about something more distant, because he says some of them might already have died.
There's also Matthew 10:23 and 24:34
2) There's about 39,000 different denominations of Christianity according to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. The point isn't moot because science isn't attempting to claim absolute truth so you can't compare the two.
3a) It means chances are far higher that you're wrong and that's assuming any are right.
3b)I'm aware it's a vision, however the author thinks that stars can be cast 'down', it's what you'd expect as they had no idea of the distances involved. Also Matthew 24:29 mentions stars 'falling' again showing a lack of understanding.
3c) Most Christians do accept the validity of evolution to some degree. However in doing so biblical creation crumbles into mythology along with many other stories such as the garden of Eden and Noah's Ark.
4) This would only be valid if I dealt in absolutes. |
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