By: lilybell@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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| I would rather live my life believing and when I have died to find there is no God than to live my life not believing then when I die, to find there is a God. |
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By: andrew.whiteman@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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| Well then lily we both gonna be dissapointed then arent we. |
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By: paul.fraser@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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| still waiting for an answer on the talking donkey .. does anyone know how many there were ? |
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By: andrew.whiteman@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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| Oh hundreds of them. LOL. Since when could animals speak ? |
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By: gjp6@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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No Arguments from me...Just these observations from my own life and experiences. I was an athiest for 38 years and have been a "Christian" for 14 years. The road has not always been smooth, but I would have it no other way because I now have a deep inner peace that no person can take away from me. I can't prove the existence of Jesus, yet I know he exists and he believes in me!
All you need to believe is Faith. If you don't have any you could ask God and he would give you some. Just for your asking he has already granted it to you...
Peace be with you. |
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By: tonywheal
6/10/2008
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I have skimmed through the last 6 - 7 pages of posts, and haven't got much time for a quick comment, but will do so anyway, as I like to throw ni cats amongst the pigeons.
Apologies in advance if these have been covered in depth more already, but this is my spin:
1. Space. I have often tried to imagine the size of this universe, and unfortunately I cannot. It is simply a magnitude too far for me to comprehend, and especially the notion of it being finite or infinite. I trust the former for matter, ie we do know for a fact that dopplering occurs in nature, and we can capitalise on that property to determine from red and blue shift that celestial bodies are moving, and in all cases moving away from us, and from each other.
That points, when working backwards, interpolating, to a time when these bodies were closer to each other (a minute ago, a week ago, a year ago...millenia ago...to a point of convergence some distant time in the past, unless there is a continuing oscillation in and out, which is possible, but not plausable given the energy required to support that oscillation and gravity being a weak force. What we see instead is more a propulsive force, momentum and inertia.
2. Time. I have often tired of the number of people who think that they understand the magitude of time. We don't. We live on this planet for 80 - 100 years if we're lucky. During that time we see a lot of changes in global accumlated knowledge, for sure, but it si only a tiniest smidgen of what real time is all about.
That is why it is a joke for us to pretend that we know about evolution or creation or intelligent design, etc. We simply cannot comprehend the time it takes for something to really change in nature. We all try to map such events back to our lifetimes as a reference. That can't be done. it doesn't work.
If we really though hard about this, we might be able to see our folly, but instead we try to map the two timelines together and it's like addi ... |
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By: tonywheal
6/10/2008
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ng 2 + 2 and getting 1 x 10 to the power of 100, (a googal, by the way.
That's why people who do not believe that things evolve are simply in the wrong time zone, and there is no way that we can occupy the right one for our analysis.
Sure, we've seen moths change in the last 180 years to match pollution - selective adaptation, but that's just the tiniest tip of the iceberg, and we cannot be so arrogant as to say, or not say, how this was controlled.
I'm deliberately running the neutral ground here, as I don't know the answers any more than other people can. |
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By: tonywheal
6/10/2008
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...and I have to continue my work, but I hope that I've brought some perspective into the argument.
We are not capable of understanding the magnitude of this all. Mathematics is the only language that can go some way to translating what we see into some meaning, but there are few of us capable of understanding these complexities, so I'll leave that to the experts.
Cheers |
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By: tonywheal
6/10/2008
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Oh, and just one other thing, following on from gjp6@xtra.co.nz
As an athiest currently, and since age 14, brought up as Christian, good morals, good outlook on life, always challenging and enquiring, I feel OK in my skin too, so it's not so much, as one person pointed out, about needing to have a religion, I feel, nor to know about my destiny.
I know I'll die. I have no problems with that, and from my perspective, that's it - I will be no more, but I'll live on as an anscestor of my children and their descendants, for without me, they would not be.
What does brass me off about dying is not being around to see all of the other discoveries and advances our amazing brains will come up with over time, but, them's the breaks - I'm sure every other enquiring mind has had the same regrets. |
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By: gjp6@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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There was a big bang!!!
and I have three witness's
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
The eternal Triune God started time itself. But he is not subject to it's properties as he is outside of time in the eternal realm...
This is were we will abide when our time is up. |
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By: andrew.whiteman@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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| Man can only be born from woman. How was god born ? You have three witnesses. Now thats funny. |
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By: deerhunter70@ymail.com
6/10/2008
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mike, sorry , I have been out all day and only looked in this minute.
I cannot let your post of 7.19am go without a short comment.
It is yourself making judgement on me through your personal interpretation of the Word.
I tell you again to beware of the pharisee in your proclamations. You are welcome to your belief. |
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By: deerhunter70@ymail.com
6/10/2008
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| tonywheal. I like your long post. Time and distance have no real meaning to us. The idea that creation happened 6000 years ago is very strange indeed. A belief ingrained in some people against a string of odds I think. |
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By: andrew.whiteman@xtra.co.nz
6/10/2008
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| Tell me all you religious people. How do you explain the dinosaurs been around millions of years before Christ ? and we know this is fact. |
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By: deerhunter70@ymail.com
6/10/2008
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That's right andrew, someone tried to tell me that man and dinosaurs lived side by side 6000 years ago! They need a big reality check.
How can beliefs that are patently so wrong gain credence in the mind? |
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By: pigpot2007
6/10/2008
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| And they consider themselves logical??? |
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By: pigpot2007
6/10/2008
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| Thank you sdf! |
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By: phejaynetwerks
6/10/2008
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Who's the religious one here? Sounds like you have a fetish for it...especially the religion of secular humanism.
So you believe in millions of years? Where is the proof beyond reasonable doubt? There is none. Carbon dating is full of holes and huge margins of error. Evidence is available that points to a 'young earth'and shatters carbon dating and evolution (Darwinian theory). As a child I was taught evolution in primary school and never questioned it. The Ape to the Piltdown man to a human being as we were lead to believe was a lie and a set up. Check it out.
Charles Darwin before the end of his life and studies apologized to the scientific faculty of the time declaring evolution to be an impossibility...finches have always been finches. Humans have always been humans. Sadly there will always be those who would choose to believe and push 'theory' full of unexplainable gaps instead of the sound evidence favoring creation. Oh and the other thing is... there are billions of dollars to be made out of the idea of evolution. Maybe...no money...no evolution? Mmmmm. Kia ora.
Phe jay |
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By: p_j32@ymail.com
6/10/2008
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| So uh... With all due respect, how big was Noah's ark? |
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By: gam.wilson@xtra.co.nz
7/10/2008
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| NOAHS ARK is at Telstra Clear Conference Centre lol..lol...Ring up the Manukau City Council ..They might give you the measurements..lol..lol.. |
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By: andrew.whiteman@xtra.co.nz
7/10/2008
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| You still havent answered the question. How do you explain the dinosaur ? You telling me that carbon dating is telling lies now. I think you need to look at another excuse. That one you laid down is not a good one really. You just cant face the facts can you ? I rest my case. See you. |
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By: mike_f596
7/10/2008
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deerhunter, .. could you please show me where i made a judgment of you? i merely quoted word for word from the bible .. you claim to beleive in the god of the bible . if tghe words of the bible grate you then obviously you are at enmity with it . i gave no interpretation of what i quoted.
i f a see a house and it is blue ..i would write ,that house is blue .. when some one reads it ,they read "that house is blue " it needs no interpretation .
so i quoted
- "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him .-"
that does not need interpretation , so take your stance and be responsible for that choice . at least andrew and pigpot and others who openly do not beleive ..do so openly and take their stance and will be held accountable for that choice unless they change their hearts . but you claim to beleive and then live and teach in opposition to god .. they are not rightous (not right before God ) and they dont claim to me . I have admitted my state of sin and unrighteousness and have been given the righteousness by faith as a gift .. but you in your words are the epitome of "self"righteousness" . this is not a judgment it is an observation . i do not condemn you for it , the words Jesus spoke , they are what you will be judged by . so measure yourself up and see where you stand . |
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By: mike_f596
7/10/2008
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Andrew: , re your dinosaurs . my reply to any such question has to be firstly , i do not know .
But then you do not know either and it is an established fact that carbon dating can not tell us anything beyond the first 2000yr period as it is a scientific fact that beyond the 2000yr mark, its accuracy is questionable to the point that it becomes conjecture .
so you are asking again a question that can neither be verified nor unverified . the book of Genesis does not give an account of everything , but rather that which is necessary to know for the salvation of men , yes the salvation through Jesus message begins there. |
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By: gam.wilson@xtra.co.nz
7/10/2008
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Hang on KAND
Just contacting my sources...
yep..it had a name...
..DONKEY.... |
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By: tonywheal
7/10/2008
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Young Earth theory.
This is upheld by a number of people, who generally believe that the age of the Earth is much younger than previously thought. Many believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.
This is due, mainly, to their disbelief in the reliability of modern dating methods for artifacts and fossils, and particularly Carbon 14 dating (the interpolation of known amounts of Carbon left in, for example, an animal when it died, and the amount that has broken down into Nitrogen 14 by the time it is measured, and discredit periods of any longer than 50,000 years as being reliable.
However, much evidence is found in nature to dispute the assumption of a young earth.
Fossil sequences were recognized and established in their broad outlines long before Charles Darwin had even thought of evolution. Early geologists, in the 1700s and 1800s, noticed how fossils seemed to occur in sequences: certain assemblages of fossils were always found below other assemblages.
Layering indicates time between events, similarly to what we see in modern times when volcanos erupt and lava falls upon old flows, or dust gathers on a table. It doesn't all happen at once, but in defined chronological sequence. And, more importantly for my discussion, it continues to happen.
It is easy to quote and ridicule Darwin, especially now that he has no right of reply, but his was preceded by a significant amount of work. [next post] |
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