By: didjereedoo
3/09/2008
6:23 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Moz,
I have read Martins books. The premise is not visited by Vikings etc in the 1200's but rather that New Zealand {Si'nim) was populated by sea faring peoples millenia before the Maori claim to being the people of the land.
As for critical evaluation : How did a people carve into the basalt/andesitic rock of the Auckland and Northland without the use of iron implements?..The time and population resources needed are considerable...this indicates a different history to what is the dogma of school teachings... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
3/09/2008
6:24 am Yahoo! Profile:
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actually Mozzarella, this could fit the discussion...
Firstly lets make this clear, there is NO derogatory translation of the word Pakeha anywhere I have seen.
Now the relevance here is that the origins of the word Pakeha are really unknown, although the most likely sources are the words pakehakeha or pakepakeha, which refer to mythical human-like creatures, with fair skin and hair, sometimes described as having come from the sea.
So this could be the Celts... hahaha... |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
6:48 am Yahoo! Profile:
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didjereedoo
I'm not going to pretend that I am a qualified geologist, or that I have any specific training in minerals, rocks and their specific properties, so I can't give you a "qualified" answer.
However, pounamu i.e. jade is slightly harder than basalt or andesitic rocks, which I believe is a type of magma/lava rock.
Hardness is a property of stone that has been employed by people all over the world. Hence, a softer type of stone can be shaped by a harder type of stone.
Maori used a type of scale to grade certain types of jade according to it's most practical useage. Some were used for weapons, some for tools and some for ornaments.
In short, you don't need iron tools to shape these types of stones. |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
6:58 am Yahoo! Profile:
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The ancient Egyptians did not have ready access to cast iron or steel for most of their history and would have used rock hammers, broad chisels, and punches
The rock hammer or stonemason's maul only needs to have a rock hardness greater than the rock being carved.
Source: (Zuber 1956, Stocks 1999; 2001). |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
7:50 am Yahoo! Profile:
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didjereedoo
I also challenge your statement: "...The time and population resources needed are considerable..."
Not really didjereedoo...not when you put things into perspective and compare the effort needed to carve those rocks in northland with the effort needed to build something much bigger.
It is estimated that the great pyramid of Giza took around 30 years to construct with stone implements using possibly 3000 workers at any one time.
So how long do you suppose it took to carve those rocks you were talking about up in Northland - 30 years? How many people do you suppose it took to carve them - 3000?
Where is your common sense? |
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By: pasada_house@xtra.co.nz
3/09/2008
9:46 am Yahoo! Profile:
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" all the men who knew about making clever things were wiped out by Maori, and only the woman were kept alive as slaves. There goes any opportunity for advancement right there."
So the women wouldn't have known any clever things? |
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By: pasada_house@xtra.co.nz
3/09/2008
10:14 am Yahoo! Profile:
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I've read through this thread and also several websites, even got Doutre's book and had a look (and I appear to be writing in rhyme) and all I have to say is that - any pretence to scholarship is negated by his blatant racism. This is not just a degree of cultural bias, ethnocentrism etc this is 'in your face' calculated racism.
It may well be that the Portugese got to Australasia before the Dutch and the English - Trickett's thesis may well be right as the Portugese were a great maritime people. BUT even though the charts were kept secret for a while - eventually though they ended up with the French and then the English - why is there not any other contemporary record of this journey? Cristobal Medonca ended up commanding a fort in Iran so maybe he offended someone and all record of his journey was obliterated? Portugese historians are very keen to ensure their country's maritime exploits are given their correct place in history - have any of them made this claim?
I would be surprised if the people who financed this expedition - didn't make ANY contemporary record of it. But - it's possible.
I just don't see what it has to do with Doutre's racist rantings. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
3/09/2008
10:23 am Yahoo! Profile:
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pasada_house
I agree to a large extent... this guy has an agenda which comes through in most of his writing and his work... He also has most of his "support" from organisations with balent racist principles...
He would not stand up well as a credible, unbiased, expert in a court of law... he is on a crusade and this is a part of that...
This does become self evident the more you research the guy... |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
11:33 am Yahoo! Profile:
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pasada
The Celtic New Zealand home page states "Politics and the agenda's of racial groupings have no place here. We simply wish to uncover the truth as it relates to the distant past and in doing so know better the land which is our home in the present."
Yet they include four items on their Articles page that are links to the Treaty of Waitangi site, to an item on an alternative early draft of the Treaty, an account of "Waitangi Tribunal and Government terrorism against a NZ farming family" -- the Titfords of Maunganui Bluff, and a link to the One New Zealand Foundation website.
There most definitely does appear to be a political agenda here! |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
11:41 am Yahoo! Profile:
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The Waipoua Stone City
According to the Celtic New Zealand website, there are "hundreds" of rock piles, dubbed "beehive houses".
These are alleged to be comparable to the megalithic dome dwellings of Britain and Europe, destroyed by Maori who arrived long after they were built.
But again, there is no evidence that they were dwellings of ANY kind. Particularly significant is the absence of any of the debris generally associated with human occupation.
If there were hundreds of people living here over a period of perhaps thousands of years, where are their discarded tools, shards of pottery, personal ornaments, religious artifacts?
The only artifacts from Waipoua that the Celtic New Zealand website can show are a couple of very crude, but distinctly Maori-looking adzes. |
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By: pyriskova
3/09/2008
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Have the archeologists ever had a good study and excavated any of the Waipoua sites? Perhaps this is what needs to be done to answer the questions once and for all? If there is any conclusive evidence to be found surely this is the answer.
Getting permission from DOC and/or the owners would appear to be the main problem. The answers sure would be interesting. |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
12:05 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Waipoua Stone City
Here is a purpose built Neolithic settlement in Skara Brae in Scotland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae
And here is Martin Doutres "megalithic dome dwellings" at Waipoua: http://www.celticnz.co.nz/waipoua_fs.html
After you look at these images and read the related information, can anyone honestly take this stuff seriously?
Celtic New Zealand logic about stone structures is also curious, to say the least. They begin with the assertion that Maori did not build in stone. Therefore, they conclude, any rock structure in this country could not have been built by Maori, and must have been the work of some other ethnic group.
Saying that Maori did not build in stone is one thing, but the so called "Waipoua Stone City" and the "Waipoua Walls" are just a crudely placed unshaped and unmortared stones that anyone of us could throw together in one afternoon.
They are hardly significant structures, much less evidence of any kind that proves the presence of a pre-Maori peoples in NZ. |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
12:15 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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pyriskova
I'm not convinced that DoC had denied permission. Is there any evidence that this is really the case?
Also, look at the link I gave earlier for the Skara Brae settlement. That site had to be EXCAVATED!
Look again at the Celtic NZ pictures of Waipoua. They are barely overgrown with shrubs and trees. If the "walls" and "dwellings" are still above ground and do not require excavation, then I would think at least some of the artifacts should be too. |
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By: mozzarella68
3/09/2008
12:29 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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The biggest problem with the Celtic New Zealand scenario is that so much alleged "evidence" for it is too vauge and is founded on too much conjecture to be taken seriously by anyone without some type of political agenda.
If there really had been a vibrant, mathematically sophisticated population living here for 4000 years, there would be more evidence of their former presence.
Would they have been so easily vanquished by a few waka loads of Maori?
And if they were so mathematically sophisticated (refer to the Celtic NZ website for pryamids, geometry, astrological codes, lunar cycles etc) then WHY THE F##K DIDN'T THEY JUST WRITE THE S**T DOWN? |
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By: pyriskova
3/09/2008
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I agree Mozzarella that the evidence re Celtic NZ is all a bit to vague. Surely the answer would be a couple of experts with a bucket and spade to go and have a good look at Waipoua for a week. This would at least provide the answer, one way or another shouldn't be too hard to do?
Whatever the scientific answer turned out to be there certainly would be no losers. Even if it conclusively proven that others were here way back in past surely all that does is add to the wealth of this country's history.
The Maori will always be classed as the indigenous people of this nation - and in my opinion - quite rightly so, but wouldn't it be amazing if Waipoua did in fact contain some ancient history for us all to enjoy learning about. |
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By: ropativ
3/09/2008
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| If anyone knows if this guy Doutre is still in the land of the living and where he is residing nowadays, please let me know. I would like him to conduct an intensive and thorough investigation on the poo I found behind my house. It's said to be an ancient poo, and cannot be traced back to the Polynesians because the polynesians could not understand how to poo in the old days. I'm sure he'll come up with some interesting and challenging explanation about this. Now the question of how the poo ended up behind my place....now that's rather complicated really. Sorry people for my ignorance... |
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By: mar_ja@xtra.co.nz
4/09/2008
4:36 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Lol Ropativ:
scoop it up and send it Miami CSI, or perhaps Hawaii Five O. |
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By: april_mike@xtra.co.nz
4/09/2008
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| please ask this investigation to concentrate in particular on any trace of strawberry cheesecake as this would clarify a very sound theory |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
4/09/2008
5:24 am Yahoo! Profile:
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actually the rock piles are more likely to be associated with Kemara farming... Maori were very particular about removing all rocks from their Kumara gardens (which were huge)... Being a root plant stones and rocks in the soil could hinder growth and made harvesting hard...
Maori also used these rocks as walls for weather protection... and the suggestion that maori NEVER constructed walls with rock is a plain lie... Maori actually used rock walls around their gardens a lot...
These rock piles look likely to be associated with that activity more then buildings... |
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By: mar_ja@xtra.co.nz
4/09/2008
6:26 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| Mike f596: Maybe the answer is somewhere on Gilligans Island, arent those people still waiting to be rescued??? |
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By: mike_f596
4/09/2008
11:34 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| marjar , could you please finance an expidtion to recover the remains of the old guy from gilligans island for burial please ...surely he gotta be done by now |
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By: mar_ja@xtra.co.nz
4/09/2008
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| It might be possible to fund such an expedition via the historical places trust Lol!! off to gilligan island |
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By: mike_f596
4/09/2008
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| Dont forget to pack coffee!!! |
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By: mar_ja@xtra.co.nz
4/09/2008
11:44 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| have to pass on the coffee, prefer Milo, dont drink tea or coffee, thanks though |
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By: mike_f596
4/09/2008
11:45 am Yahoo! Profile:
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====> nods knowingly ..- the mormon connection huh .
lol |
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