By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
8:37 pm Yahoo! Profile:
harry.jess@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| quite frankly if you haven't done any sort of academic reading in regards to the treaty you shouldn't even be participating in these kinds of discussion unless you are simply answering the questions that were originally asked. |
|
By: wottheheck@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
9:23 pm Yahoo! Profile:
wottheheck@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
Hi jess. Yeah good point.
I learnt the articles of the treaty and a lot of its history years after I left school working in various Government Departments.
Not Maori. Irish & Norweigan heritage but not much interested in that - see myself as a New Zealand pakeha whose heritage started with my settler forebears who arrived a couple of hundred years ago.
Have a copy of the official English version of the Treaty and translation in Maori. Am aware differences in translation led to misunderstandings, misinterpretations and a disagreements that led to the New Zealand wars in the 1860s and still occur today.
I like world history generally as an interest, & have read several NZ histories. From Taranaki, researched Parihaka. The more I learned, the more shame and discomfort I felt at the unlawful confiscations and repressive actions of early settler governments, and suppression of Maori language and culture. Also the more I understood why so many Maori have such anger and a continuing sense of injustice.
Tried to learn Maori language but not easy working all hours and raising a family for years. Maori is the native language of the land I was born and live in. I think ideally we should all be able to speak it but many pakeha and Maori don't feel that way, and discussions about that sometimes generate more heat than light.
Am surprised they don't teach the Treaty at schools. I just assumed by now they did. |
|
By: nicolte
13/07/2008
9:46 pm Yahoo! Profile:
nicolte Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| jess, academic reading is not a prerequisite for posting here, this is a discussion forum where people from all walks of life can post their "own opinion", whether it be an educated opinion or not. Remember, it is only another persons opinion, these forums would be pretty boring if everyone saw things exactly the same way wouldn't they? |
|
By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
10:04 pm Yahoo! Profile:
harry.jess@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
i agree wottheheck, that's pretty much all i really want from the people on here ... to read about and understand what happened before they start blabbing on about how the maori are complaining about nothing and the treaty is worthless etc. i really don't care if they don't come to the same opinion as me, i actually find it interesting (i like the debate), it just annoys me when people who don't understand the first thing about the treaty want to come on here downtalking maori.
and nicolte; i don't expect everyone to see things the same way, certainly not my way ... yes that would be boring ... but i do expect that if somebody knows NOTHING about the topic that they don't comment ... i don't enter posts that are on topics i don't have any form of knowledge about |
|
By: wottheheck@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
10:08 pm Yahoo! Profile:
wottheheck@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| Thanks Nicolte. Jess has a point though that the first posting that started the thread asked some interesting questions. If she likes to think of herself as an academic, that's cool too. If she thinks academics are somehow intrinsically wiser than anybody else, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, but that's cool too. |
|
By: wottheheck@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
10:11 pm Yahoo! Profile:
wottheheck@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| Whoops - sorry Jess. I take that back. I misunderstood what you were saying and I apologise. |
|
By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
10:15 pm Yahoo! Profile:
harry.jess@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
not a problem
was just saying that people should read into it first before commenting yano
the academic bit was that they should read proper books written by academics who have researched it etc. |
|
By: wottheheck@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
10:23 pm Yahoo! Profile:
wottheheck@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| Yeah. I know what you are saying, but it's not just academics who write about these matters, and I guess in a democracy we have to accept all kinds of commenters. Be good to get it back on point though. |
|
By: cally242
13/07/2008
10:33 pm Yahoo! Profile:
cally242 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| Not much technically, and what I do know as fact is what I have learnt through news programmes. Looks like they have some interesting programmes on Maori TV, but I cannot understand the language and there are no subtitles. |
|
By: wottheheck@xtra.co.nz
13/07/2008
10:36 pm Yahoo! Profile:
wottheheck@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| Not having a go or suggesting you should, but just interested to know if you would like to be able to understand the language? |
|
By: shaggers500
14/07/2008
6:16 am Yahoo! Profile:
shaggers500 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
harry.jess - wot a di ck. To say you must be an academic to participate......lol. I bet you work for a govt. ministry don't you. pull ya head in matey...
I've known a few academics in my short life and they usally end up being lonely little people.... |
|
By: lorenyng
14/07/2008
6:53 am Yahoo! Profile:
lorenyng Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
It seems that at school I learned about nothing but the history of NZ and about the Treaty - from primary years through until the end of high school - which is unfortunate. While naturally New Zealand history is important, i learned very little about world history. We have to remember that our country is very young, and that its roots did not just come from Maori - who also settled here. We were Colonised by the English, we also had many Asian gold and gum diggers settle in the early years.
I never learnt about the Great Wars, in which so many New Zealand soldiers died. I never learnt about British history - the great depression, or the falling of the Russian empire at school - i had to read about it for myself.
Sometimes i think that our education system is far too focused on being PC than being actually educational.
I believe that it should be compulsory to learn about the Treaty, along with ALL of New Zealand history to some degree, but we also need to ensure that the history of the world (which actually existed more than 168 years ago) is taught as well. |
|
By: powley9
14/07/2008
7:16 am Yahoo! Profile:
powley9 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| we did learn about it in school not in great detail but enough |
|
By: public_emilly
14/07/2008
7:40 am Yahoo! Profile:
public_emilly Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| this is for way back on page 4. Kiwi_Gurl, I said in my post I thought it was 3 pages of trashtalk 'save for' contributors of the likes of yourself. mindnumbing waste however referring to the constant references to 'we are one' bla bla bla. hope that clears that up. Am Maori btw, and have recently done essay work on orality versus literacy and monoculturalism in Media so thats my knowledge base. |
|
By: musopiano
14/07/2008
8:01 am Yahoo! Profile:
musopiano Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
Yes maybe you do need to educate yourself before you can even comment about the treaty, coming form someone who was even schooled in NZL,
So firstly, head to the Library, and get The history of NZL out,
You may be enlightened, rather than some personal view that you have that is untrue |
|
By: hvbest@xtra.co.nz
14/07/2008
8:17 am Yahoo! Profile:
hvbest@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| They can stick the Treaty were the sun dosent shine |
|
By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
14/07/2008
8:58 am Yahoo! Profile:
abu2@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
hvbest
Yep they have done that already... it's in a display vault at NZ Archieves... low lighting and no natural light at all... it actually sat in a drawer for a few years being used as a home for rats or mice... no sun there either... |
|
By: sylkemore007
14/07/2008
12:14 pm Yahoo! Profile:
sylkemore007 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
I am a 49 year old 7th generation nzer who grew up in Wanganui. When I was young my granddad worked on the council as did many of the local Maori, my father worked at the freezing works once again alongside many Maori.I spent a lot of time living with my grand parents who took me with them to visit their friends at Putiki and Ratana and regularly had many people of all races visiting/staying at their house.
My father on the other hand hated Maori and would not mix with them.My brothers also seem to be this way inclined.
Through my grand parent and their friends I learnt that not all wrongs against the Maori people were historic, they were still happening!The people I met didn't seem to be bitter or vengeful,but they certainly knew things were unfair.
when the locals stood up and demanded what was truly theirs I stood with them because it was the right thing to do.I had very little knowledge of the treaty then and I'm not much better now, however I must say that it annoys me to hear that you like most other Maori have received little or nothing from the hundreds of millions of dollars paid as compensation. It is my belief that the settlement ideals have been corrupted by greedy and unscrupulous lawyers and officials on both sides.Like all domestic disputes once the lawyers come in they get richer while the house the car and the waka are sold to cover their bills.
To sum up, I think that the treaty is a lovely old historical document that is past it's use by date. We would all do well to give it's ideals some serious attention and make sure that as we move into the future together we don't allow the greedy or radical to use the treaty to divide us |
|
By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
15/07/2008
11:07 am Yahoo! Profile:
harry.jess@xtra.co.nz Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
shaggers500; not once did i say you needed to be an academic to participate. i said that you should at least know about the treaty if you want to debate about it.
read ... comprehend ... then re-comment. |
|
By: wandarap2005
15/07/2008
11:33 am Yahoo! Profile:
wandarap2005 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| I went to school in the 50's and 60's and I learned nothing about the Treaty except Waitangi Day was a celebration and a holiday and the day Maori and Pakeha signed a paper to make us partners - yeah right!..Like Titiwhai Harawira said some time again Waitangi Day is a celebration of Maori loss - now THAT I can understand! |
|
By: boooo48
15/07/2008
1:33 pm Yahoo! Profile:
boooo48 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| HER MAJESTY VICTORIA Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland regarding with Her Royal Favour the Native Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and anxious to protect their just Rights and Property and to secure to them the enjoyment of Peace and Good Order has deemed it necessary in consequence of the great number of Her Majesty's Subjects who have already settled in New Zealand and the rapid extension of Emigration both from Europe and Australia which is still in progress to constitute and appoint a functionary properly authorised to treat with the Aborigines of New Zealand for the recognition of Her Majesty's Sovereign authority over the whole or any part of those islands – Her Majesty therefore being desirous to establish a settled form of Civil Government with a view to avert the evil consequences which must result from the absence of the necessary Laws and Institutions alike to the native population and to Her subjects has been graciously pleased to empower and to authorise me William Hobson a Captain in Her Majesty's Royal Navy Consul and Lieutenant-Governor of such parts of New Zealand as may be or hereafter shall be ceded to her Majesty to invite the confederated and independent Chiefs of New Zealand to concur in the following Articles and Conditions. |
|
By: boooo48
15/07/2008
1:34 pm Yahoo! Profile:
boooo48 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
Article the first [Article 1]
The Chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand and the separate and independent Chiefs who have not become members of the Confederation cede to Her Majesty the Queen of England absolutely and without reservation all the rights and powers of Sovereignty which the said Confederation or Individual Chiefs respectively exercise or possess, or may be supposed to exercise or to possess over their respective Territories as the sole sovereigns thereof. |
|
By: boooo48
15/07/2008
1:34 pm Yahoo! Profile:
boooo48 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
Article the second [Article 2]
Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and to the respective families and individuals thereof the full exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession; but the Chiefs of the United Tribes and the individual Chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of Preemption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective Proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf. |
|
By: boooo48
15/07/2008
1:35 pm Yahoo! Profile:
boooo48 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
Article the third [Article 3]
In consideration thereof Her Majesty the Queen of England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her royal protection and imparts to them all the Rights and Privileges of British Subjects.
(signed) William Hobson, Lieutenant-Governor |
|
By: boooo48
15/07/2008
1:35 pm Yahoo! Profile:
boooo48 Did this message offend you?
Sign in to report abuse |
Reply to this message |
| Now therefore We the Chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand being assembled in Congress at Victoria in Waitangi and We the Separate and Independent Chiefs of New Zealand claiming authority over the Tribes and Territories which are specified after our respective names, having been made fully to understand the Provisions of the foregoing Treaty, accept and enter into the same in the full spirit and meaning thereof in witness of which we have attached our signatures or marks at the places and the dates respectively specified. Done at Waitangi this Sixth day of February in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and forty. |
|
