By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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I believe that the TOW and the victim mentality that rears it's ugly head whenever a Maori commits a serious crime are mutually exclusive.
As (saintasitic) has put it on another thread, the injustices of the past do not stop a parent from loving a child, guiding, and providing a safe and secure environment, and giving them the tools to become a useful member of society. If it does somehow, then someone please explain? |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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Wht is often overlooked is that MANY peoples of NZ are here because of extreme injustices and the reason they are able to get on with their lives is that they HAve to put them behind. I feel the treaty is somewhat counterproductive in some aspects as it creates a grievance mentality. Many of these peoples lost ALl their land and most if not all of their families They have no claims or comebacks but have then to pay out to others. I think the whole thing needs to be put into perspective
Life was tough 200 years ago, only a few privileged races ever got compensated by treaties.... |
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By: tgod_123
19/07/2008
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Agreed however to "putting it into perspective" as you mentioned in your post, you have to understand the issue fully. The full facts are not part of the education system at Primary, Intermediate or High School levels unless they have recently changed.
The fact is that a treaty was signed in this country between Maori and colonists. Acceptance, recognition and the honoring of it would be a start in the right direction. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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nicolte
NZ has systems, rules and a culturally dominated society which best suits the pakeha mindset and doesn't suit the Maori mindset... we are culturally different and the current set up suits one culture more then the other, it is that simple... the treaty guarateed the continuation of a system that did suit Maori... this was distroyed, dismantled and in many cases legistlated against... until the only way you could survive in this country, or achive was/is to think in a Pakeha way...
Ask yourself this simple question - Why do Maori fail so much at school?... the answer is simple, the education system, does not suit them... yet Maori have a huge history of education and learning...
We have a society where you either "think" in a pakeha way, or fail... This is the INJUSTICE of today, not the past... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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| ... and the worse thing is; Maori have tried to set up systems that work for them to allow them to think something other then the Pakeha way, with Maori Education, Maori Social Services, Maori Health Systems, in which Maori models of thinking and working are used... Yet people have the audacity to call them racist... when we are still surrounded by systems designed to suit Pakeha thinking which we have the cheek to call that mainstream... |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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abu2 Firstly do you realise that "pakeha" is over 100 nationalities. Do you realise how incredibly narrow minded it is to lump everyone together as if their cultures don't matter and are all the same They are not!!! All of us have had to adjust to the the 21stcentury You can't hide behind the system not suiting you. As a teacher I see first hand why kids fail and you can't blame it simplistically as you do. Yes the education system doesn't suit Maori children but part of this cant'be helped The 21st century doesnt;' always fit in with the cultural mores of the past and sorry you have to adjust. A lot of the traditional attitudes are counter productive and need to change.
As for the comment by someone else about having to understand the past history = well Ok but also remember many of us have also been disinherited completely several times over the last 150 years and have no help or recogntion - nor do we bother about it We can't.The colonists who signed the treaty were English and often disappeared back tothe UK as they were wont to do Look at India. Now we the completely disinherited who were not part of this are left with a debt not of our own making and a "guilty conscience or so we are told" to help the Maori people with their grievances. Don't you realise that many in NZ see the Maori as extremely lucky!!! |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| abu, from the moment you are born you are a sponge to the environment around you, in other words we all start at the same starting position. We may be culturally different, but this is NOT about culture, this is about survival and adjusting to the environment that one is brought up in. Culture is a living breathing entity, that is forever changing, culture is not something from the past, it is something we live through in the present. Adapting to one's environment, and culture are not one in the same, but can live in harmony with one an other, they do not need to be opposing forces. |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| I have pretty much mimmicked what you have just said jgini@xtra.co.nz :-) |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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Yes abu, the government has funded a lot of Maori services to specially help Maori Can't you see the privilege in this?
I won't say its racist though it is based on helping one race and not the others I would call it a privlege and I'm fine with thatHowever I don't ever see any thankfulness for this help always the negative about what is not had any longer. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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| Good on you nicolte because I am getting sick of this grievance stuff . I find the word pakeha extremely offensive just for the record While Maori culture is treated with kid gloves all our cultures are put in a rubbish tin and called Pakeha Some of my ancestors had a much worse time from the English than the Maori people btw but we are not even given the dignity of having a culture acknowledged |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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nicolte
Don't you realise that the debate about nature vs nurture has already been had... nature won, we are "hard wired"... the current system suits people who are "hard wired" in a certain way...
Oh and I am not a separatist, and I certainly don't want disharmony... I am a basic, yet very successful, Maori man, who has never been on the dole, before the courts or failed at education (in fact I excelled at this)... I grew up in a very working class, lower socio-economic community, I had glue ear and am a diagnosed dyslexic (hense spelling issues)... I understand how to think in a Pakeha way, and so I have been successful, against many odds... and I am grateful for that success...
I love NZ, with a passion, and I love being Maori with an equal passion... I fit in this society, and I fit in Maori society... I see things from both worlds, I know things from both worlds... and I won't nothing more then these to worlds to be closer joined... and living in harmony... |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| abu, we have had many discussions, you have never resorted to some of the idiocy displayed by other certain sections of our community. I fully respect you, and everything you believe in, I just do not concur with your theory of being "hard wired", I find this total nonsense. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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jgini
no one is stopping you from acknowledging your culture, or denying your history, damn I am really proud of my Irish and Scottish anscestry and wouldn't let anyone stop me from acknowledging that... oh and the "my people were treated worse then your people" is a bit counter productive as an argument don't you think... |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| Human nature is what it is. This IS "hard wired", but to further try and break it down to race, IMO is an excuse, only used for those who underachieve or fail in the environment they are born into. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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| The nature versus nurture debate is not won at all. Psychological research has not found this so don;t twist it. Both have valid input and as a post graduate psychology person I see the nurture aspect as having a lot of relevance in the current debate Abu it's great you have there loves and passions but just be careful about looking at the world just from your aspect and the Maori aspect Do you have any idea at all about the many cultures in NZ or are we all in the rubbish tin. How degrading. |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| abu, do you believe that NZ culture is the same as Scottish culture? |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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You miss the many points abu My people are not doing all the complaining are not asking for anything, and are paying out for your privileges.
If not for this debate I would never mention anything of this sort I am merely trying to put things into perspective as it is badly needed.
Also my culture and the cultures of many people are continuously ignored by being lumped together as Pakeha and being continuously being told we are just one culture and that everything suits us Please read what Ive written as you have missed the point |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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nicolte
Being hard wired is not my theory... Check out the whole "Nuture" (up bringing and environment) vs "Nature" (born with particular tendancies or 'hard wired') debate... it was huge in the 60s through to the early 90s in Psychology and psycho-pysiology... The vast majority of conclusions point to us having tendancies that part of our genetic make up, that lead us to think and act in particular ways... i.e. we are born with psychological tendancies, or we are hard wired to think in a particular way... |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| yes abubu, as humans, not as individual races, I am very familiar with the nature vs nurture argument. |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| I ask this because if your answer to the question is NO, then your whole theory has just flown out the window. I am 12 thousand miles from, and completely disassociated from what MY culture should have been, and yet this has not disadvantaged me in the slightest. |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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Abu I have A Masters in Psychology and I repeat the nuture is very valid Sure there is research about the importance of hard wired but I can produce you research on the other side also Both are important Many Maori fail at school because of the cultural nuture aspect.
As for noone is preventing me acknowleding my background - dont; you get it? You say the system suits PAKEHA all 100 different cultures of us We are all the same You dont' acknowledge anything about us PAKEHA is extremely offensive |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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jgini
don't think I have missed the point... your people don't complain, fair enough, some rape victims don't complain either... that doesn't make it complaining about it wrong...
You don't like the term Pakeha... It's a word I am using right now to describe the non-maori system of thinking in place at the moment, I use it because it is the easist phrase to use in the circumstance... if you don't like that word substitute another I don't care (the word itself is not the discussion here)... But it's the word I am using in this context and I am not using it to strip anyone else's culture of any meaning... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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jgini
I am not trying to offend you... If you like I can use "Eurocentric thinking, models and practices" instead of Pakeha... but I am going to get sick of typing that out...
Thanks for backing me up on the hardwire point though... which is the guts of the discussion I am trying to have... not whether the word Pakeha is insulting to you... |
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By: nicolte
19/07/2008
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| abu, if it were truly hard wired, then how do you explain (especially with your other setback dyslexia) your own success? I realise you also have Scots and Irish ancestry, but so do most Maori. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
19/07/2008
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nicolte
the nature vs nuture argument is totally about the individual... hence it's place in psychology and not sociology... |
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