By: mrphamtom
20/07/2008
3:23 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| WHEN DO WE START PAYING AMERICA FOR USING THEIR MOONLIGHT? They own it as they were there first? I want the damm muskets and blankets back! If whitey arrived 50 yrs there would be no treaty cause they would of eaten each other... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
8:50 am Yahoo! Profile:
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mrphamtom
what a great contribution to the discussion... my word and so clever... |
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By: juzzkirk
20/07/2008
10:05 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| yes my moonlight bill must be "astronomical" badoom chih |
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By: powley9
20/07/2008
10:20 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| this treaty has become a industry learning about it at uni that dont come cheap pay outs that even dearer it old and dated needs sorting out so we all can get on with living |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
11:13 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Abu the Irish situation is similar and different to the Maori one They had the very land they were living on taken off them, they had to pay rent for the houses and land they had always lived on (i.e.the land their house stood on)and then when the potato famine happened their rent was more than their crops so the most common cause of death was from eating the roots in the ground. The dirt had a lethal bacteria in it. From My Maori classes I learned that the the ownership of land could be a simple as a fire lit on the beach and all the land that could be seen was then theirs - a much easier way of owning land than working a samll patch for thousands of years. There were villages like Parihaka taken but wasn't this to do with the wars. Not saying this is right however remember that these Irish immigrants are beholden to the Maori for their land settlements and it was the English in both cases who profited and the Irish who lost twice. I'm not Irish btw
The grievance industry is truly an industry. There are riduculous claims under the Treaty such as air space and loss of trading empires that didn't exist and can be proven not to. The Maori leaders promote the industry for their own benefit One I worked with told me that there was corruption but so what! China was corrupt and look at its economic growth so therefore the corruption in Maori leaderdom was good for NZ. Yes really. Tipene Reagan made the comment that there couldn't be a full and final treaty settlement because what could the grandchildren claim for.Yes really. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
1:04 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Yep the situation is similar and different... and I'd love to discuss them... as I said I am well aware of Irish history... But we aren't discussing that here, the only real relevance being that the legistlation used to take, confiscate or steal up to 3 million acres from Maori was taken straight from laws used in Ireland...
and you need to be careful about laying your world view on ownership over that of Maori... perspectives are different, doesn't make one more right then the other... |
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By: powley9
20/07/2008
1:14 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| abu the treaty does not cover or claim land in private ownership is this correct. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
1:17 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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powley
Yes the Tribunal (which only has the power to recommend) is not allowed to consider the return of land which is privately owned... |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
1:44 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Note the point Abu that the Irish settlers have to compensate you - they lose twice and you get compensated if not for all at least for some - and who's doing the complaining - not them.
As for the view of world ownership - well there has to be a fair definition |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
1:49 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| don't know about a fair diffinition... but an understanding that there are multiple world views of what ownership is, would be a good start... because right now we are forced to apply one world view only... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
1:54 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| not that I don't want a fair difinition... but it needs to be based on a foundation of knowledge and understanding... |
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By: jgini@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
2:10 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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says a lot - don't want fairness.Don't you understand that this is how everything gets out of hand People will overclaim owning ridiculous things e.g.outer space at one point BECAUSE THEY CAN.Greed gets followed by resentment, race relations decline etcetc It's all very well wanting cultural understanding etc for yourselves yet walking roughshod over other peoples cultures because they don't matter and everything suits them (does it = of course not but they just get on with it - its the 21st century)
Don't you realise thisis why people like me have competel;y lost sympathy with the whole thing. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
20/07/2008
2:28 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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jgini
I think you missed my second post...
"not that I don't want a fair difinition... but it needs to be based on a foundation of knowledge and understanding..."
never said I don't want fairness... but understanding needs to come first... |
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By: taniwha40
21/07/2008
1:31 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| Having studied Te Tiriti O Waitangi and being of maori descent-Te Tiriti was signed in good faith by all who were present. There are many iwi who did not sign. However, after the signing it was the CROWN who did not honour it. Maori have kept to their part fo it. Also the wording is different from Maori to English. Maori never ceded to give up all their land to he english. They wanted the British to govern the settlers who were making behaving badly and Maori did not wish to impose their laws on to the settlers. It was suppose to be a partnership but look at what happen-What is being claimed back today doesn't even come close to the value of what has been lost by Maori. They had their land taken, they couldn't grow food and look after their whanau. A good book to read is about the history of Parihaka-"Go ask that Mountain". Better to do some research. |
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By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
21/07/2008
2:10 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| govt spending on treaty payouts is less than quarter of one percent. |
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By: working4mimoney
21/07/2008
2:16 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| Maori cost this country billions! |
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By: working4mimoney
21/07/2008
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| I bet you have never and will never recieve anything from your iwi either. |
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By: tgod_123
21/07/2008
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Wrong, plenty of scholarships available through Iwi's. Iwi helped with my fathers Tangi costs.
You still have to meet most Iwi criteria, nothing much different to "Pakeha" application processes I know my Iwi has an achievement award it pays out annually to applicants that have achieved success at National or International levels.
Lets face it most people have had to move for work and the rural areas dont always have the best work options if your not wanting to farm, The result is people become disconnected and they dont know how to access funding. |
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By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
21/07/2008
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LOL maori cost billions
the present-day value of the land that was confiscated from Tainui alone is in excess of $12 billion and that doesn't even take into account the opportunities that were lost by not being able to develop the land OR the what happened to those whose land was lost.
the government has only spent around 0.24% of its total spending on treaty settlements over the last 15 or so years. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
21/07/2008
8:39 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| Don't worry harry.jess the ignorance justifies their hatred of the treaty process... the reality is the country spends 90 billion a year on welfare payments, 36 billion go on Superanuation alone, that's a year... the Treaty payments since the Waitangi Tribunal started effectively running in 1985, have only JUST hit the 1 billion mark... so that is 1 Billion over 23 years... it's actually been quite cheap... |
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