By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
9:31 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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absolutely
Maori signed over 'kawanatanga' or governorship in the Maori version (which by the way is something that they had no concept of so how could they really sign it over knowingly??), yet in the English version they are signing over all sovereignty.
For some reason we live by the English version. Guess it suited the English better. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| yep Kawanatanga was one of those made up words... Kawana was first used in the Maori version of the bible for Pilot's title of Governer... it's a transliteration like Tiwi for TV, or Moto Ka for Motor Car... Governer = Kawana... Kawanatanga is the act of Governing, in the context that Pilot did in the bible, which is hugely different then sovereignty... |
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By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
9:53 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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yup
and either way Maori get to keep all their treasures in the english version yeah? Land is one of their most prized posessions.
RIPPED. OFF. by lies. disgusting considering the british well welcomed and looked after. |
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By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| ^"WERE" welcomed |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| not as innocent as all that, yes contra preferentum applies however have to look at the DOI to understand the depth of deceit. |
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By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| yep declaration of independece 1835 giving complete sovereignty to the chiefs of aotearoa. the thing that i don't get about that is the wording that they used, what was it in the declaration? mana or tino rangatiratanga or something?? to describe the complete sovereignty that the chiefs would retain, then 5 years later all of a sudden we have 'kawanatanga' describing this, a word that is nowhere near as powerful |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| The first article was a "we give the crown" statement... no way Maori were going to sign away their mana or Rangatiratanga to the crown... absolutely no way... Williams knew this when he was translating it, and because he wanted the treaty signed he delierately avoided these two maori words that can be used for sovereignty... and he made one up... simple really... |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| yep initiated by the crown to create a sovereign state from which to cede sovereignty from in the TOW. Same copyrighter. |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| actually more cunning than that abu, again the DOI is the key. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| So what is your ideal outcome? |
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By: harry.jess@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
10:17 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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ya
man i bet half the people on here wouldn't even have a clue what we were talking about
never heard of the declaration of independence
maori prisoners act
know about the native land court
public works act
taranaki land wars
bastion point
all of the judges walking through wellington protesting against maori being able to take cases to the privy council (which in turn made it illegal for maori to present cases to them)
and yet maori are still just moaning over nothing ... pfffffft |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| Ideal? Well that would require a time machine, realistic is a completely different kettle of fish. In my mind social and economic equity has always been the measure and demise of a successful affirmative action. Currently claimants go through the tribunal process to prove standing and quantum of damage, they then go into negotiations with the crown where the quantum is acknowledged and a maximum of 2% of that amount is offered in full and final settlement. May be a while before equity can be achieved under the current system. IMO |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| I know what you mean, most of the time the void is so great I can't be ar$ed edumacating. lmbao |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| So would you actually want Maori sovereignty? Or a Maori Sovereighn state eg Lichtenstein? |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| In my opinion the first is not feasible. |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| What is Maori sovereignty? |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
10:32 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Ideal...
The problem is in the land... Maori had a very prosperous life and very industrious trade and business with NZ Pakeha and trade partners in Aussie and the Western USA... but this was all based upon the use of land... The economic stability of iwi was based upon this simple resource... once thsi went Maori social and economic demise was always going to happen...
and since the land can't be given back, grievance will always exist...
So "ideal" give the land back... all the land taken the contravened the second article of the treaty... Land stollen under the Native Lands Act, The New Zealand Settlements Act and the Supression of Rebellion Act... |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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imwatching
Maori Law and Maori government would be my best sescription of sovereignty. |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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I know enough to know that there was never any need for one as only the original occupiers of this land could possibly have ever had any claim to any of it, And they certainly didnt come from Hawaii. The treaty and all the million dollar give aways that are going on at the moment are a complete have,
40 years ago, my father sold his farm? Im not happy with the price, shall i claim it back?? Or should i just ask for the next spare forest. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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<and since the land can't be given back, grievance will always exist... >
So basically, you believe there is no answer, and no end? |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| DO you mean Maori governance over the entire country or are you talking parallel systems of governance? Nothing is simple. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| No one is talking about the "fair trade" of the time, it is the unlawful claiming of land that is in question. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| I was speaking Maori governance over entire country. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
10:41 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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gazza dude
if your fathers farm had been stollen I'm sure you would feel differently... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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nicolte
You asked for ideal... I gave that... I also know that this is unrealistic and highly improbable...
As for your next question... Yes I believe there will always be some kind of grievance... because the original thing stollen can't be returned... The loss of land was not just about a money thing... it was a mana thing... Pakeha have always struggled with that simple fact... and so you can give millions of $$$... but until the mana is returned, anger and grievance will persist... |
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