By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| If that be the case, does it not make a mockery of proceedings? |
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By: imwatchingyou@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| nicolte you'r easking me whether I think the country should be governed according to the wishes of 14% of the current population. However, when the TOW was signed Maori outnumbered non maori 20 to 1. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| The ONLY reason I support the TOW and the treaty process is because of my belief that it WILL bring New Zealanders together, and one side will not feel anger and grievance as they do today. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| On top of the fact that it is "the right thing to do". |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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| agh, yes i would, most certainly, But he didnt lay claim to something that was never his in the first place. The only reason this gets on my nerves is the fact that all the hoo haa is created pointing towards and helping the natives of this country, The maori are not the owners, They arrived here from another country, but that aside, how can million dollar give aways be justified based on hard feelings from a long time ago, we have all had equal chance at schooling and employement options, we have all been brought up in the same country, Why should some people get filthy rich because they think that there great great great grandparents had a raw deal, Is there anyone left that can look after themselves or does everyone have to look for an easy ride? |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| imwatching, in which case it WAS for a short time governed by %5 of the population. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| I believe anger and grievance will lessen and people will learn from this process... it will bring people together... but it will not completely heal the wound completely... I admire your position and agree with you... but you need to understand that the wound will heal enough, but the scare will always remain... |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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| Nice answer, in other words you will be happy to take the money and nothing will change, Hence the reason the gov shouldnt be wasting our money. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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<agh, yes i would, most certainly, But he didnt lay claim to something that was never his in the first place.>
How can you be so sure of that. Who sold the land to him? Who sold the land to them? Was it all legitimate? Was that land confiscated at any time during NZ history?
Who says the land that Maori want returned was never theirs?
Umm First come, first served. You must surely know this to be the case? |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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gazza dude
appreciate your frustration... but your uneducated and obviously close mined perspective is part of the problem we have... you have no idea of the hisory of pain and upset involved... you talk about systems and rights as though they actally really existed, and exist today, to us all on an equal basis, and you even deny the existence of the relationship between Maori and the land... you should either read a book and enter he discussion with an educated view... or leave it to those who have... |
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By: jerry_springer_room
11/07/2008
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| What I know about the treaty is this; it would be a good document to w1pe my ar5e with after I have had a dump. |
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By: nicolte
11/07/2008
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| abu2, All we can do is hope our grandchildren do not go through the same discrimination and resentment that we have lived through, and presently live in, to reach the end result. |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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| Yes, well put, And no i dont know the history of that particular piece of land from when the country was formed, but i do know that my ancestors arrived and broke in that area and proceeded to make it farmable from scrub, so im guessing there was no one living there at the time, If there was they must have been living up a tree or under a bush and if so i apoligise on behalf of my ancestors, The big issue here is, Damage has been done in the past? The way past past, Who seriously has any right to claim for anything that did not affect them directly? |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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ABU,
I have read a lot of books and i have lived in this beautiful country all my life as has my father and his father and so on, Im probably more versed on this topic than you are,, I base a lot of things on experience -- i listen i learn, i watch i learn, I love people that are people, I dont care what colour you are--if you can smile then i like you, if you are an angry activist after a free feed, then i dont, the past is the past, learn to move forward and work for a living. Yes the world has had a problem with racism in the past, that was the past, but the PC happy governments are just making it to easy for people to take free rides. |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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gazza dude
you keep doing it... the forests that existed here prior to your ancestors slash and burn policy, was productive land... they were a larder of food and spiritual sustenance... it's a perspective that our European ancester failed to see... that only saw land as being useful in one format, the format they knew from the UK, and they brought that attitude here... but another attitude already existed here... which loved the forests and the scrub, used it and lived off it...
... and you still say "Who seriously has any right to claim for anything that did not affect them directly?" well maori do... because if you read all the negative stats out there Maori continue to be affected directly TODAY... |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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| sorry gazza dude you aren't showing you are very well versed on this topic at all... would love to know what books you read, because you seem to be stuck on some major stereotypical themes of racial ignorance... |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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| Nicolte, you must be happy--surely you have noticed that the racism has made a dramatic turn, No free stuff for the white man, Imagine if we had a "Pakeha" rugby team, Imagine if we had a "Pakeha" College, OH would we be soo racist, |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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gazza dude
do you even know the history of the Maori rugby team?
can you name a single school in NZ that refuses entry based upon race?
you keep coming back to stupid, yet common stereotypes that have no substance... |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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well, i only have knowledge and wisdom to back me up, ill give up now because i cant beat the ignorance and the greed, Ill just continue to work myself to death Knowing full well that i did it all by myself and not bludging off the past, As hard as it is in this country that i loved so much,
Ignorance is a false form of intelligence, If this keeps up there will be racial wars, and that is a complete turn around, we will be right back where we started, The only reason i would be remotely interested in being there if that happened would be to save my kids, |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
11/07/2008
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you haven't expressed any knowledge or wisdom... just the standard uneducated C.R.A.P that usually falls from the mouths of those that don't want to understand the problem and be a part of the solution... you prefer to bury your head in the sand and throw stones at it...
and by the way I am Irish/Scotish/English ancestry... Maori in part via my father's mother... and I am damn proud of all of it... No one in my family (immediate has ever collected a benefit, I have never recieved a grant from my iwi conections... I also have a BA in Social Policy and a Masters in NZ history mainly based upon the treaty and the NZ wars (you know the race wars you talked about, we've already had them)...
... and for someone who professes to love this country so much... you really don't want it to love you back do you... |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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ABU,
are you capable of being your own person or do you have to use your nativity as a crutch, We are all born humans, and given chances, green yellow orange black brown or white, why dwell on the past, Were you there, i think not, was i there, definately not, so why should i suffer while you concentrate on making people miserable over facts that had nothing to do with you, |
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By: gazza_dude2000
11/07/2008
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ABU,
incedibly well educated for someone with no common sense |
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By: gazza_dude2000
12/07/2008
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ABU
I was gonna give up, but as for the comment about "you dont want it to love you back"
explain! I have loved this country many generations before i was born, im a KIWI solid as a rock, |
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By: abu2@xtra.co.nz
12/07/2008
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love the structure of your argument gazza, not once have you supplied a simple fact or slice of wisdom to you argument, it has been mainly simplistic statements without and substance... and then the standard fall back of the uneducated is to personally insult... I will take that as a victory... you are a cliche' gazza... but thanks for reminding me that the cliche' is still out there, and we have so much work as a nation to really heal, while guys like you keep infecting the wound with fixations of rugby teams, schools and words like "greed"... and still content to throw stones at the real problems...
Fortunately you are rare... |
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By: goddess588
12/07/2008
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I have read the Treaty in various forms, plus have done other reading to cement in my mind how it applies to me in my job particularly (as this awareness is a requirement of my employment) and have strong views that the principles of partnership, protection and participation should be upheld, not only from a bicultural perspective but from a multi-cultural one, regardless of whether the Treaty is currently valid/legal or not.
I am non-Maori, with a NZ born European mother and an Australian-born European father, born and brought up in a small bi-cultural North Island town. My family culture was very European. I started school in 1971 and part of our curriculum was Maori - the language (at a much lesser level than English though) and the culture - looking back it seems to me to have been so closely interwoven with the English curriculum standard in that era that I didn't realise there were actually two cultures or races as such until I was about 8 or 9. However, we didn't learn about the Treaty in terms of anything other than a brief overview in context with the history of NZ, certainly I don't remember any strong views being expressed.
If I had to define my culture I would regard myself as bi-cultural, even multi-cultural - for me ethnicity is less important than culture.
My partner is Maori (and Pakeha, with some Indian ancestry) and our two children are products of us both. Their culture is more Maori than mine because they have been exposed to Tikanga from birth, it's their culture because of their blood, where at times I feel like an usurper in Maoridom because I am non-Maori ethnically and my Kaupapa is different because of my initial upbringing.
I accept that people have racial and cultural differences, and that's always going to be a problem in NZ as Maori and European (speaking very broadly) have totally different world views and are at opposite poles when it comes to their perspective of time (future/past). |
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