By: garybwills
3/07/2009
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| alamein001, Are you still there? |
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By: thunder3507
3/07/2009
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You got it in one Tu Tangata!
Justice for Maori was a secondary consideration in the revival of the TOW. They (pakeha) brought it back so they could get OUT of it. I guess I tried to say it in less words than you did in a earlier thread I started that got trashed! |
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By: eatme_nz
3/07/2009
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| thunder, why wouldnt we want out of it? its outdated!!! |
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By: tu_tangata
3/07/2009
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kia ora kotuou katoa. tena koe bellebirds.
The question is what process and by who and against who.
From the simplest cases have come the most important principles of law - preceedence being set by simple cases.
and so a simple case is best approach - one individual claimant in regard to one individual land title - clear;y identifiable as having been missappropriated under a crown act - therefore the crown the first rspondent - the current land occupier a second respondent. Maori land court and waitangi tribunal to be appointed as 'friends of the court' so as no need to stall proceedings to be subject of another jurisdiction as are both of those. All resources and support services available to the high court.maximise efficiency.
case to proceed on investigation of chain of title and process of transfer of title.
Principles of property law will be applied - as with any other properety before the courts.
the court will issue a judgement and orders for compliance - the land title will be restored to the rightful owner.
The preceedent will be set for the first time in the history of this country - i.e. for the first time maori will be dealt with 'without prejudice or discrimination' and the law will be adminstered without misscarriage of justice to maori. Justioce will be done.
Following which the crown will then be obliged to investigate all title transfers and redress all matters where land title was improperly / unlawfully transferred.
that is then what the waitangi tribunal should do - as they should have right from the beggining.
although sad outcome for non maori in many cases - it is a just outcome - for no one ought to want to deny a person his property that has been stolen from him - and the law would have been applied equally and equitably to all new zealanders - i.e the principles of law will have been upheld - which can only be good for a society of law abiding citizens.
ONE SIMPLE CASE IS ALL IT WILL TAKE |
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By: tu_tangata
3/07/2009
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eatme - principles of law and the majority of laws adminstered by the courts are laws which were in existence prior to the signing of the treaty - those laws are not 'outdated' - why is it that the document which gave passgae to the implementation of those laws here in nz be seen to be outdated.
I think not. It is time for the treaty to be 'DATED' as being 'CURRENT' and enforcable by law - the very laws it gave passage to .
That sound remotely fair by any chance ? |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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Tu Tangata do you know what the word treaty means?
It means you have to stop fighting. Normally one attack is enough to break a treaty. And there were how many years of fighting after it was signed? It meant you also could no attack other maori as well as the pakeha.
How is is possible that after another 50 years plus of fighting. Maori can just say ... "oh well looks like the fighting didn't work we can just go back to the old treaty and get our stuff back". Wrong!!
Anyone that made any attacks was breaking the treaty and making their land free for the taking. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| And you know it. A new treaty should have been drawn up after all the fighting stopped. A much more clearer one. |
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By: alamein001
3/07/2009
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Thunder... Your right, revival of the Treaty was political expediency to cover ramifications that would develop.
Although the majority of Legislators were mainstream some were Maori MP's, who did nothing in making the voices of Maoridom heard.
This in effect forced Maori down the path of "controlled" Settlement procedures.
It was never about justice for Maori, rather to impede Maori from the same processes of mainstream law. Legislators reinstating the status of a forgotten document under a contrived banner was to convince the mainstream and Maori voters. It was bought by one and all hook line and sinker! |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| How is is possible that after another 50 years plus of fighting. Maori can just say ... "oh well looks like the fighting didn't work we can just go back to the old treaty and get our stuff back". Wrong!! |
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By: alamein001
3/07/2009
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tutangata .... What you suggest is the reason for the revival of the TOW "re-discovery" out of the archives.
Mainstream Legislators "knew" hence its revival into the general arena.
For Maori it did away with access to the principals of mainstream law and was allowed to proceed by the gullible on both sides of the spectrum.
It was and always will be about power and control by mainstream Legislators over Maori every since the treaty was ever signed. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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A treaty that doesn't stop any fighting or arguments is worthless. And not even a treaty. Treaty means peace and that never happened. Do you blame anyone for taking the land of those that broke it?
It is still causing arguments today. It has never meant peace for one second. Exactly the opposite of what treaty means. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| Conveniently slipped your minds huh? The fact that many tribes were still warring after the treaty was made. |
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By: alamein001
3/07/2009
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bordass.... nothing was convenient forgotten doughboy!
It was your jealous white settlers that knew how to manipulate their system to have prime Tainui lands stolen and confiscated for their benefit. Aint changed much today! |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| NObody forced them to attack. It was their choice. If they had a problem with any settlers they shoulda taken the people to the authorities not cracked their skulls. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| Main reason they trying to sort out a few settlements is to try to alleviate a few grievances. It will never happen though by what I see on here. You will never be satisfied. You will continue runnin round like chooks with their heads cut off forever. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| Self destructing your own race. |
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By: datagarble
3/07/2009
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| lqtm. |
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By: eatme_nz
3/07/2009
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| tu tangata.. stop bleating. in order to be remotely fair, the treaty settlements have to be fair to non maori too. |
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By: jacquenoire
3/07/2009
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| i really don't understand why non-maori and maori make such a fuss over the treaty. let the maori have it because they need it and perhaps it might help them. the reality is, that the total treaty paypout isn't going to be that much. approximately 4 billion, give or take a billion will eventually be handed over to the tribes. this sum appears insignificant when you consider that nz's richest man, graeme hart is worth more than the entire settlement. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| Why don't they hurry the fk up then. They have been pissing everyone off with it in the media. For longer than most have been alive. Why do they feel the need to put any of it in the papers? |
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By: eatme_nz
3/07/2009
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| graeme hart is worth more than 4 billion? |
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By: tu_tangata
3/07/2009
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vrybored - quite obvious you have never attended a treaty claims hearing or read a report from a tribunal.
No one i know of - including the many non maori involved - has ever left a full hearing with any doubts whatsoever that moari were ripped off - had they not been - this process would not exist - the crown has admited the crime - they have admitted maori were not at fault - they are simply asking maori to now please forget about it.
those maori who are after the money and who get the money will - those who were robbed and who dont get their land back wont !
world history shows these things never go away until righted - ussr / hong kong / indonesia timor / yugoslavia / south sfrica / rhodesia / ceylon / india pakistan - you dreaming if you hoping this is going to go away .
it will happen one day - a fact of human nature to right injustices - just something that comes naturally especially to natural people.
the law will prevail for all new zealanders one day - not just fopr non maori. |
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By: eatme_nz
3/07/2009
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| not sure how government money spent on treaty settlements is 'the law prevailing' for non maori. |
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By: vrybored37
3/07/2009
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| More like six figure salaries keep it going. They are scared of losing them once it ends. Might have to do some real work. |
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By: tewhirorakete
3/07/2009
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Vryborer
"""NObody forced them to attack. It was their choice. If they had a problem with any settlers they shoulda taken the people to the authorities not cracked their skulls.:::
There will always be sacrifices in times of revolution!!!!! |
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