By: maxiez73
11/08/2008
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| ah choices, like my man who didn't want to be a father again and ends up owing $30,000 the mother was bitter and ird didn't want to do their job!!!! |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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| Yes you are right it is rather deep topic and your shallow assessment of me and what I have written is incorrect. What I mean to say is I identify with the shear number of mistaken pregnancies that occur, and many of these are to woman who do not have the support of those who sired them. This is often demonstrated by their absence. Tens of thousands of males are forced, by the system, to accept kids they dont necessarily want. Why are men treated this way? Yes mistakes are made by both parties but why arent males allowed to take part in the decision making process about what happens next? Why dont males have the same rights to decide for themselves what they want to do? The fact is, If they did, it stands to reason there would be a lot less unwanted kids around I would guarantee that. Suddenly the females would need to wake up to themselves and who they are consenting to have sex with. |
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By: unclenana@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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lando,
I also dont want males unfairly targeted. I also have no respect for females that get pregnant for the $ and .....
But a 'one law for all' approach will not work and will have other reprecussions e.g. (using wasullivans ideas) an increase in back street abortions & all the complications that go with it.
Any law/social policy can look good on paper but the mechanics of it can be quite unrealistic and cruel. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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Family court - Free
DNA testing - Free
Abortion clinics - Free
Adoption agency sevices - Free
DPB for first child - Free
Doctors, Plunket, early child care - Free
All Free. Would still be cheaper than the system we have at present. |
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By: shellie.chris
11/08/2008
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wassullivan...
Ive only just clicked on this page and read your last post, so please forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick, but...
are you suggesting that men who father children they dont want have the legal right to compell the woman to have an abortion, or somehow legally absolve themselves of any responcibilty?? |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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unclenana
If this sounds Draconian consider all the unhappy-uncared for kids running around now. I would rather know that unwanted kids are aborted or adopted out than hear about them getting bashed to death, or ending up in jail. Its like, why continuingly send boat loads of food aid to third world countries when boat loads of contraception is what they really need. We have idiots running the world. What is the point of overpopulating the planet and cut all the trees down, rape the oceans, wipe out the wild life, and pollute the world to house and feed them all. Thinking about what humans have done to the planet in the past 150 years I cant imagine what its going to look like in the next 150 years. Im so glad I was born in the fifties. Sadly it seems the only way I see the madness stopping is by nature dealing a levelling blow with a mass pandemic. Perhaps some crazy scientists are working on something right now. That would be freaky. There are far more humane ways of introducing eugenics than that.
Problem is 95% of the worlds population believes in giving all their problems to imaginary Gods, and hope like hell they end up in an imaginary heaven where life is promised to be better, and in doing so, masse humans loose sight of what they are doing to the only planet we have actually got. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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Shellie_chris
I think jumping in on a thread without reading what has been said is not a great place to start |
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By: shellie.chris
11/08/2008
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| your right, but ive got to go to sleep soon, and i was to lazy to go back and read for myself. was hoping you would just tell me :) |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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Shellie_chris
Copied and pasted from below.
Any female who fails to ensure contraception is used and finds herself pregnant from a one night stand for example, and she wants the DPB, should have to present herself to a family court within the first 12 weeks. She would have to name the sire or possible sires who would also be mandatorily made to appear. The sire/s should have to undergo immediate DNA testing to prove paternity, payed for by the state. Once the family court is satisfied they have the right sire, the first question to him is to ask how he feels about it. If he says it was a mistake and doesnt want to know, the court advisers him that he is free to go. The court then turns to the female and asks what her intentions are. If she says she wants to keep it, irrespective of the sire walking out. The court then has to determine she is fit and able to be a parent via a parental suitability process to assess her eligibility, taking into account her age, family support if any and her ability to pay for it. (A somewhat relaxed version of the adoption agency criteria). If she does qualify for government assistance, this should only happen for the first mistake made. If she does not qualify the pregnancy is terminated, or the baby is put up for adoption.
Do you have a better, fairer idea? |
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By: adam-victoria@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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to unclenana and mar_ja, who started this thread, i would like to say thank you, for your apparently enlightened viewpoints, and for questioning the points of view of wasullivan. To understand the theories of eugenics and population evolution, it pays to have both a scientific and humanitarian perspective, of which wa' has neither.
wa' is clearly a bigot (re earlier posts about 'inferior' races), a misogynist (re posts suggesting men should walk free of the clumsy outcomes of their sexual fumblings while women must be forced to have abortions or adopt their child), is an attention seeker, and a poor speller.
i am embarrassed to think that intelligent people from other countries may be reading these posts and thinking that new zealanders are all ignorant blow-hards. So thank you to those who have post with informed messages. To those who support the empty can and his rattles, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
i'm off to look for intelligent life elsewhere, as it is in short supply on this board.
Adam |
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By: astronoddy
11/08/2008
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| Bye Vickie :-) |
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By: shellie.chris
11/08/2008
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wassullivan,
its late and im tired, so Im stating outright that this isnt the best or the most well thought out responce I could give.
firstly, contraception is only 97% effective, so its not always a mistake, or the 'fault' of the woman. Plus, antibiotics, even grapefruit can interfere with its effectiveness. who would you blame then? the doctor who prescribed the pill or the fruit?
who decides if the prospective mother is a fit mother? who designs the test, who administers it?
it takes two to tango. is it really fair that the father can simply decide to opt out? aside from the fact that hes is partly responcible, what about the childs right to know his father? Your entire plan works on the assumption that its the soley womans responcibility. its her fault that she got pregnant. She chose to keep the baby. Its all her decision. Surely the father has some 'blame'. Why couldnt he burden the responcibility because he chose to sleep with a drunk easy girl?
..theres more i would like to say, but the child i chose to keep is crying, and I need to go to him.
I do think you intentions are good, its obvious you are concerned with the welfare of the children, but i think your plan is not the way to go. i havent edited this, so sorry if it makes no sence :) |
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By: unclenana@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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wasullivan,
i share your frustration about what has & is happening to our world and our children & about idiot leaders & people who blame God for all their & the worlds ills, then turn around & ask the same God for help!
But just bring yourself back for a moment to your courtroom. You have allowed the male to walk out because he's not interested. You have before you a pregnant female whom you will now judge as to whether or not she is fit to even continue with the pregnancy, let alone give birth. If she does give birth, you decide whether she gets the opportunity to raise that child or have it adopted out.
In trying to protect & preserve our planet and our children, you are in fact giving with one hand but taking with the other.
And yes there is emotion because we - male & female - are human beings. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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Shellie_chris
97% is a great start. Only need to worry about the 3 %. Expand on the existing adoption agencies with new policies to deal with screening wanabe parents. Is it fair that females have 3 choices and a male has none? I did not mention drunk easy girls, but since you did, why shouldnt they be made more responsible for being drunk and easy?.
Its easier to keep on blaming males and make them pay for drunk easy girls mistakes and emotional decisions they make after the mistakes are made I suppose. doesnt make it right though. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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unclenana
Yes. I would afford the male the same rights as the female. Especially as we are dealing with such an important issue as kids. Its possibly one of the biggest decisions and responsibility we have as adults. Why should only the female have all the say in deciding such important matters on behalf of males. Particularly since those decisions are so often emotional charged, and so often without much logic applied to the real outcome of those decisions?. Why should a female, who may never even know a guy for more than 1 drunken night, have the power to dictate the rest of his life like that? |
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By: unclenana@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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wasullivan
please read my reply again.
your law abdicates the male and strips the female of any decision making rights.
This is exhausting!
goodnight |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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It wouldnt be right to have a dog if one didnt look after it properly. But then people dont usually chose to keep a dog by mistake. Need a licence to have a dog. All I am really advocating is, that the choice any wanabe parent would have if they wanted kids is to pass a simple test.
Every male should have the right to have a say and have his opinions taken into account when deciding such important matters that will affect the rest of his life instead of sweeping it all under the carpet at WINZ. The fact is our society has 22% of our kids living below poverty lines and every other social problem that is associated with it. Is society getting better or worse? Its so easy to knock someone offering a debate, than share some alternatives of ones own. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
11/08/2008
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| I intended to be controversial on purpose to stimulate debate on issues like this that effect us all. But oh well, we will pop it back into the too hard basket. Im off to bed too. |
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By: lando.garner
12/08/2008
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| was...... don't be dejected, I think I can see where you are coming from. It's a tough line, but no one has offered any other suggestions. So rest in peace. I wouldn't want to make the decisions or draw the line, but if we want to stop family violence and abuse we have to start somewhere - and that's probably right at the beginning as you are suggesting. I think you may upset wimmin, but.... hey if we didn't have different ideas or protesters we would stagnate as a species. Keep your ideas flowing. |
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By: shellie.chris
12/08/2008
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looking over some of the posts on this thread gives me chills. People describing toddlers as wastes of space because the prarents look gormless. Others suggesting we remove babies from probable loving mothers if they fail a state sanctioned 'good mother' test. Suggesting that single mothers must fight for the right to keep their own unborn offspring in family court, while allowing fathers to walk free with no responcibilty. It all reminds me of some sick twisted futuristic sci-fi movie. I also wonder if the writers of some of these posts might be pretty hardcore woman haters. There are some pretty dodgy parents out there, and no doubt there are some women who nuture the DPB as though its their career. But some of the suggestions offered in this thread are just plain sick and very cruel.
(and before anyone goes of at me about how its better to treat 'silly' pregnant women poorly than bury another murderd baby, I say you might be right, but the suggestions here are NOT the answer). |
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By: lando.garner
12/08/2008
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| what is the answer shellie? |
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By: mikeg_70@rocketmail.com
12/08/2008
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| It's probably called 'Logans Run' shellie. You know, when they sent the unwanted to 'Carousel'? |
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By: shellie.chris
12/08/2008
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| and im feeling a bit angry now, so im gonna go on. Most of the people advocating these abhorant ideas seem to be men. So im going to bring up a point that will no doubt p.i.s.s you all of, exposing myself as just another emotional slightly hysterical woman...but here we go. Can you imagine what its like to carry a child? To feel EVERYTHING, every movement, every hicup (yes, unborn babies can hicup). To not drink coffee, tea, wine, eat pork, eggs, fish...to gladly give up all your old habits because its for welfare of your child. Then theres the birth, which is not quick and clean like on TV, but can take a couple of days, and can actually ,as in my case, very nearly kill both the mother and the baby. And some people have the AUDACITY to think that they can apply a test, and imediately decide a mother is unfit and tear the new baby out of her arms?? Some of you think thats fair, thats right???? your mothers must be really proud. |
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By: shellie.chris
12/08/2008
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im not sure hwat the answer is LAndo, but it aint this.
All i can suggest is listen to hospital staff, if they think a baby is going to an at risk home, have social services check up on it. Better communication between agencies, doctors, all that jazz. better minds than mine are working on it. But the answer isnt whats suggested here. |
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By: maxiez73
12/08/2008
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| half the time its the lack of communication when these kids fall through the net. |
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