By: trishfcrazy
23/09/2008
6:42 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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I listen to your fear.
I live near Mt Roskill too and have taught many a Muslim child. Many of them refugees, some of them not.
The saddest thing I ever saw - a child of 11 essentially murdered because of his religon and colour. The police decided to call it an 'accident' - easier to deal with than to bring up the fact that good law-abiding citizens in our country might feel such hatred as to kill a child. Heck that might make US as evil as THEM.
For goodness sake - most of the muslims living in our country are just people - jo blogs- trying to get through day to day as we are. It is our own fear we need to be afraid of. Yes you can read anywhere all the horrid conspircies or whatever. And yes there may be a few terrorists amid us. Probably no more than our usual nutcases of whatever race or creed.
I have seen a woman crying in disbelief at our so called safe society, uncomprehending as stones were thrown through her housing corp house. Her alone, with 4 children under 9 years - her waiting for her husband to be able to be with them. The stones thrown why????? For no other reason than that she is Muslim.
Look at your own religion and throw the first stone. Geeeeez |
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By: planza5133
23/09/2008
6:55 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Shukra trishfcrazy. Yes that is the point we should first acknowledge. We are all human. That is the common ground that should help us communicate our view points.
We have emotions, needs, and fears. Should we be muslims, christian or whatever religion, culture and background, we sure share the title of been human.
That should be enough to take us to the next level of communication rather than getting too personal. |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
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nice call planza. that sort of thing is all through NZ, was talking to a girl once and she was explaining what it was like when she and her family immigrated here from fiji. Not that it should matter, but they were indian, and some of her earliest memories were of huddling in a back room of their house with their mum, cowering because of rocks being thrown in the windows and abusive groups of people out side. welcome to NZ.
What about the Marriot Hotel chrisan555? Do you have a point to make? A truck loaded with explosives was driven by a suicide bomber into the hotel killing guests there. Visitors to the country, local bigwigs and Muslims. All at Iftar. Which is the name for breaking the fast of ramadan at nightfall. Politics drove this, not religon. |
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By: planza5133
23/09/2008
7:15 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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A point I want to make, we are human first and politics is outside of our frame as human. Politics shouldn't control and drive us. It is our set belief that drives us to do things that damage our common ground to relate to other human beings.
Look at the US race for Presidency. Regardless of Obama been well educated in US system, people now pull the race card on him. The belief of certain group entitle to power and leadership. He is a well educated human being.
Look at how McCain walk around Palin like guard dog, does it take that bad to win at every cost despite of who is capable in doing the job, or doing something that benefit all.
Its a joke when people couldn't get out of their set beliefs.
Our worst enemy is our own lack to tolerate and the limitation to move beyond our beliefs and fears. |
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By: trishfcrazy
23/09/2008
7:16 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Sorry - I wanted to share with some of you too one of the most positive experiences I have had.
Years ago , in a class I had we were looking at our cultures. A 7 year old boy came dressed in his 'going to mosque clothes' and went through the rituals of prayer. He explained to the class what they did and why.Another child in the class (A Pacific Islander) asked him - but are you praying to God?
Yes of course, was his reply.
"Do you have White Sunday?" the same kid asked
" no - what's that?"
They talked about White Sunday.
A teacher I was sharing this class with and I were invited for lunch to this boy's home. His father was an English University trained doctor - living in little flat. Our government had told him he would have a job here -hmmmmm.
Well the gist of it is we spent 6 hours having lunch, discussing religion and I know I for one came away with a much more enlightened view of Islam.
My friend with me is a devout Christian -the whole exchange was one of understanding.
I highly recommend getting to know your local Muslims |
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By: amy_summer2003
23/09/2008
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| bronco..living in a muslim community? with what you have just said i think a better term for it to quote seanmicheals is RADICAL MUSLIMS...the aims of Islam is purely to submit your will to Allah (means God in arabic) and to serve mankind...by adhering to the Five Pillars of Islam...the Quran is written in arabic and muslims learn arabic so as not to misunderstand or misinterpret it ... you cant force anyone into conversion of Islam it is a conversion of the heart ... anyone who does is not following the precepts of the Quran or the teachings of Prophet Mohammed PBUH.. |
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By: trishfcrazy
23/09/2008
7:20 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| Now wouldn't that be something if Obama really gets there -what a stand |
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By: bronco_0101
23/09/2008
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| ari- I understand your way of thinking and congratulate you on your open âwesternâ attitude. It is commendable. It is a view of the world that I share to a great extent, but it is a view that we tend to try and overlay onto other peoples thinking. Often it becomes difficult to even comprehend how alien other people thinking and conditioning can be. There are no minority, nut case radicals behind the death sentence handed to the Afghan who changed to Christianity. It is the legitimately elected Islamic Afghan government. Last year they also sentenced an Afghan journalist to death for an article in which he criticized Islamic treatment of women. I don't know how much of the Qor'an you read, but it would not only strike you as difficult to understand from the creationist view point (at least they have an approximation to a big bang theory), but the contradictions are also difficult to grasp. Just bear in mind that, difficult as it is for our western way of thinking to comprehend, it is a quick trip to the Muslim version of hell even to question anything about Allah or Islam, even in your own mind. Just to have the smallest of doubt is a no no. Sadly, it is our willingness to try and embrace, understand and include that stops us from understanding. I have lived in multiracial communities that have been established a lot longer than those in New Zealand and I have no problem with any other group, religion, race â you name it. Most have integrated well. However, there are Muslim no go areas in British cities now, communities in themselves that do not allow non-Muslims to live or work there. We have been very lucky up to now in New Zealand, but it is that isolation that has allowed to take this view that there is no problem. |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
7:24 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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wouldn't it! Go Obama!
amy, I think all the "I hate people different from me" people have left the room. pheeew. |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
7:25 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| oops. spoke to soon. Will now read on! |
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By: bronco_0101
23/09/2008
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| amy - when Ashfin Javed in Iran claimed to have had a radical meeting with Jesus and went to his local Mosque to tell everyone of his revelation, if Islam is love, why did they try and stone him to death? |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
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| ok bronco, but I still maintain that the racism muslims from india, pakistan etc faced when they arrived in the UK in a great way influenced how they as a community now deal with the british population at large. Would you not circle your wagons when faced with a daily barrage of terror from whitey, from your host country? would you not do your level best to protect your wife and child? would you not close the door to intergration, when you have recieved no justice in your adopted country for the brutal murder of a family member by drunken lager louts? would you not start to feel the slightest bit of hatred? My point is only that with the bigotry and ignorance rampant on this thread, if it's over flowing into reality, then yes...we will have the same situation here. Read amy's post, as I can't say it better. |
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By: trishfcrazy
23/09/2008
7:36 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Could you expound on that a bit?
Sadly, it is our willingness to try and embrace, understand and include that stops us from understanding. |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
7:38 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| me trish? which bit? |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
7:41 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| ok guys, got to go collect my girl from school, will check in tomorrow. |
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By: trishfcrazy
23/09/2008
7:41 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| sorry no -I meant roco the Sadly, it is our willingness to try and embrace, understand and include that stops us from understanding. bit of his/her last message. I am a bit new to this |
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By: trishfcrazy
23/09/2008
7:44 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| bronco even -dammit I can't multi-task tonight-Sorry |
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By: planza5133
23/09/2008
7:45 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| goodnight ari |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
23/09/2008
7:47 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| sleep tight |
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By: bronco_0101
23/09/2008
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| Ari â I understand that fully, but other communities, religions, races went to the U.K. and did not have anywhere near the problems. Why would that be? At various points during my time in England I had girl friends from the West Indies, China and one that was half Indian and half English â truly gorgeous. Never any problems and I got on with their families really well â I actually had more problems with the father of an Irish girl I dated. It still doesn't address the issues associated with Islam and it's destiny stated by the Prophet that it will rule the world. |
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By: bruceduke800
23/09/2008
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Basically all us liberal, tolerant westerners are educated to believe that with enough understanding, empathy etc we will all get on with anybody. We are also taught to believe that if there is racial tension then its our fault. This is naive.
Look anywhere in the world and where you have two races of fairly different cultures there is always tension or conflict, eg; tamils and singalise in Shri Lanka, Indians and Fijis in Fiji, Polynesians and europeans in nZ, etc, etc.
Human beings trust those that are similar to themselves.
The more disimilar the other group is the more tension.
Thats why NZ needs to choose its emigrants very very carefully.
We need to learn from the mistakes made in Britain, France, Australia, etc otherwise we will eventually stop being a peaceful country. |
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By: ari_jo2002
23/09/2008
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sorry bronco, but I find that a little hard to believe. we were living in Dublin when they opened the republic up to limited immigrants from africa and asia, and i have to say that the attitudes of the irish relected those of nz just a few short years ago to asians, particularly in the sth island where their exposure previously had been minimal. just have to look at the 'asian bashing ' going on in chch.
The UK generally has had a much longer and broader association with people of colour and different cultures, and still their racsism, and outright inability to accept new people is widespread. Having worked with mainstream irish and english, and having a few as friends...your arguement holds no water. Can you also please give me a reference for the 'rule the world' passage spoken by the prophet? amy has, I think effectively answered this. the 5 pillars of islam, peace etc. even jihad, does not mean what it has come to represent in the western world. Any 'muslims' who teach and or talk otherwise, are not truelly muslim, they are outside of God. |
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By: bronco_0101
24/09/2008
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| Ari - Yup, the pillars of Islam â I fully understand this and that there should be no harm to the innocent. But in Islam, there are 2 houses. The Dar-Al-Islam (House of Islam) or the Dar-Al-Harb (the House of War). Anyone outside Islam is in the house of war and therefore is not innocent. There can only be world peace when the Dar-Al-Islam rules the world and the Dar-Al-Harb is no more. Al-Sharq Al-Awsat - "It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb is not protected." The Dar Al-Harb is referred to in the Hadith and the Prophet Muhammad referred to âUnbelief is one communityâ and made no distinction between any group of non-Muslims. I still have a problem with the fact that people who turn from Islam to another religion are seen as attacking Islam and under Sharia Law may be executed. This is not the policy of some bunch of radicals, but actual Sharia Law. Abdul Rahman was arrested for turning to Christianity from Islam. Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada said the accused was charged with rejecting Islam and this was an attack on Islam. Sharia Law states that any Muslim who rejects Islam should be sentenced to death. So where is the peace and the compassion in that. Islam is great for the Dar-Al-Islam and all the rules apply. As for the rest of us in the Dar-Al-Harb, we are all fair game. |
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By: amy_summer2003
24/09/2008
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| bronco although your knowledge of Islam is indepth it seems to me you are trying to manipulate your point of view across by applying some information and omitting some..you talk about Dar Al Islam (House of Islam) and Dar Al Harb(House of War) but you didnt mention Dar Al Muwada'ah (territory of mutual peace) also Dar Al Islam applies to muslims living within their own boundaries who are afforded protection to live and practice their religion without menace..and Dar Al Harb relates to muslims who chose to live outside of the protection where their lives and religious practices maybe at risk..wherever muslims do not enjoy such freedom is Dar Kufr even though such a place maybe governed by muslim leaders.. |
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By: amy_summer2003
24/09/2008
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| P.S. it is an indication of ignorance to apply these concepts on the contemporary world today. They were put in place by the fuqaha or jurists well after Islam was instituted and purely to discourage muslims from living in non muslim societies where they were not appreciated or wanted.. |
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