By: whkb1
25/09/2008
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I do not relate to Islam or their false prophet,
beliefs and culture. Let them remain in their own
lands and don't bring their anti NZ beliefs here.
WHKB1: |
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By: naffock
25/09/2008
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| Jdyhrberg; look at the U.K. There was an influx of Muslims in the 1970’s. They partied, went to night clubs, chatted up girls, completely fitted in with the culture. There were no problems. Their children, born in England have seen what their parents have done and have decided to embrace fundamental Islam instead. Far be it from the English being hostile in the beginning, but attitudes changed based on the hostility and rejection of English society by the next generation Muslims born in the U.K. They are dispossessed, feeling that they are English, born English, but also fundamental Muslims and do not fit in anywhere properly. This is a breeding ground for radicals. This has become the same in France, Germany and the Netherlands. It is not rejection of Muslims by society, but the rejection of society by Muslims. |
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By: jdyhrberg70
25/09/2008
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inbred - what you say is true. Racism exists everywhere, varying only in method and practice. I suppose the question each of us has to ask is what stand we personally take with respect to it?
I dont post here justifying war, terrorism or racism - they are all very great evils for the suffering they cause. Interestingly they live together and fed off each other. A muslum terrorist and a NZ racist are the same thing in my book, one may even be the other if their situations were reversed.
Sure there is some clerics who preach aggressive expansion of their religion. The amazing thing is there are people who listen. To suggest that these few clerics are who everyone in Islam follows is stupid. It defies belief and to suggest that Muslums in NZ follow such teachings is a play on the fears of the uninformed in the community in which they are living.
If you people have your way then I expect that fairly soon we may get some radical preaching here. Leap forward but remember you have fired your best shot. America cannot win this war against terrorism other than by withdrawing its influence from the middle east, respecting these peoples rights to live their lives as they choose and leading the world in compensating Palestine for its loss caused by the creation of Israel.
If they dont do this then you red necks will also loose. Israel will be forced into a catastrophic war. Terrorism will probably come here and we will be forced to live in violence and fear - unless of course we practice what we preach..religious tolerance, equal opportunity, respect for all - are you not in favour of these things? |
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By: jdyhrberg70
25/09/2008
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| whkb - and what other beliefs, cultures or perhaps idea's, social norms, etc dont you like so we can arrange to have them banned as well. |
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By: jdyhrberg70
25/09/2008
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| naffock - SOME children have embraced fundamental islam, I am sure you meant to say. I dont believe all muslum kids have suddenly gone to the dark side. These problems dont exist here. We have a very small islamic community subject to much suspicion and intolerance from people who already have joined the fight. Thank god that is not the majority, NZ'rs I like to think are better than that. |
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By: naffock
25/09/2008
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| Jdyhrberg - Like I said, not rejection by English society, but rejection of English society. So where did the problem arise? It was not with mainstream English society and it only takes SOME to cause the problems. If you have read and understood the post you would realize that, NZers are generally great people, but there is still the risk of Muslims, born in New Zealand, feeling dispossessed, disempowered. If I read you correctly you referred to fundamental Muslims in England as going to the dark side. Fundamental does not mean that. In essence it means that rather than accepting a watered down version that their parents followed, designed to go with the flow, they have just gone back to the exact words of Allah. Every word and every meaning, no interpretation at all – literal submission. That then further distances them from society and only aggravates the dispossessed, disempowered feelings. That is the breeding ground for radicals. Warm, welcoming and tolerant as Kiwis are (except for the bash a pom a day phase – not nice), there is nothing we can do about this as a society, but the potential is there. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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| Personally I would rather have more to do with the Jews. Their religion is not one based on revenge. The trouble with the Muslim religion is it does not recognize any other Religions. They aren't big on forgiveness if you convert to Christianity they will likely kill you or your relatives. It is a shocking religion that does not fit into a modern society. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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Kiwi_trace, Islam is not a NATIONALITY it is a RELIGION. Muslims, those that practise Islam, are spread across the globe in the same manner as Christians, Jews, Bhuddists, Hindus and numerous other Faiths. New Zealand prides itself on being a country where individuals are allowed to practise the religion of their choice freely. Comments like yours appear to display a degree of ignorance and intolerance that I hope would not be indicative of the person you really are.
There are extremists/radicals in many sectors of society. Their extremism may be rooted in ideological, political, religious, economic, cultural or some other form of belief.
The simple fact that there are individuals, or communal groups of extremists/radicals, who proclaim (often lightly) an affiliation with some broader, usually innocuous element of society should not give rise to ill-considered condemnation of the masses. Stereotyping in this fashion only serves to benefit and further the causes of those less-savoury elements on this planet. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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Robaman, Islam is not a religion based on revenge. This is one of the many fallacies that are often proclaimed about Islam. Furthermore, Islam does recognise other religions and is more tolerant of other religions than many of the so-called 'Western' religions. Muslims embrace 'Believers' and, in fact, consider that the three religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism are of the same 'family', simply basing their beliefs upon different scriptures and having different prophets.
Before commenting in a seemingly authoritarian way on issues such as the fundmentals of different religions, it is always useful to do some research first. Statements made in ignorance can often flame the fires of extremists. |
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By: jdyhrberg70
25/09/2008
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| naffock - by the dark side I meant to terrorism...you leap to assume that muslums were welcomed into Britain with open arms. They were not. Britain was already facing immigration issues flowing from its colonial days and the population was hardly welcoming immigration with open arms. It doesnt really matter, we are agreed that lack of acceptance is a strong factor in the emergence of fundamentalism. NZ has not had the immigration waves that Britain has experienced and we are in a position to learn from their experience. Of course the potential is there but that shouldnt mean that we should just leap to where Britain is now, in the fear and suspicion stakes...if we do we create our own fears - if we dont we have a chance of remaining that warm, tolerant country we have a reputation of being. |
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By: naffock
25/09/2008
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| Jdyhrberg - Were you there in Britain in the 70’s. I was. I was at University in Birmingham. I had many Muslim friends amongst those who embraced British culture. We had a ball. Then I worked with Muslims once I had left university. During the 70’s in the British midlands we were more in fear of being blown up by the IRA – my 2 favourite pubs in the centre of Birmingham were blown up in one night and I lost quite a few friends as well as being within 10 minutes of getting caught in one blast myself – but I still had close Irish friends and nearly married an Irish girl. So don’t get me confused with some irrational bigot. I know about extremists from many different cultures and I have probably lived through a lot more and understand a lot more than you might think. |
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By: pistonbroke@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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| What? |
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By: john7nilda
25/09/2008
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| The ideal of Islam is that every infidel (non muslim) should either bow to Alah (who is NOT the God of the Bible)or be killed. In Islamic countries if you embrace another religion other than Islam you are imprisoned, cut off from your family and in many cases never seen again. Wake up N.Z. and don't be fooled Islam is the bigest threat the "free world" faces! |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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John, I'm not sure where you studied theology, but I suggest you ask for your fees to be refunded. I am living in an Islamic country and what you have spouted forth, as an all-embracing comment, is grossly incorrect.
Generalisations like yours serve only to demonstrate an ignorance of Islam and are the worst kind of fear-mongering, reminiscent of Hitler's ranting against Judaism in the 1930s. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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John, To help your understanding, Muslims DO NOT consider that their beliefs are a 'New Religion'. They consider that Mohammad is a prophet who helped to restore the monotheistic (big word there John, meaning one 'Faith') faith of Abraham, Moses and Jesus and other prophets.
Muslims believe in only one God. They use the name Allah when referring to God - this is the Arabic word for God. In their teachings this one God is the SAME God for Christians, Jews, Muslims and all other Believers.
Unlike Christians, who discount other religions, by dismissing them as not believing in 'their God - the 'Christian God'', Muslims embrace other Believers because they consider that there is only one God who may be worshipped in many different ways, according to an individual's faith. |
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By: nafnafkaboom
25/09/2008
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| What the hell are you lot on about? How the human race has managed to survive till now is just bloody amazing. We have religions making headlines based on the rantings of a hack sci-fi writer, religions based on myth and fairy tales and you are discussing one based on the word of a psychotic, murdering, epileptic kiddie fiddler. Get real. Ignore it and it will go away. |
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By: jdyhrberg70
25/09/2008
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naffock - ah the IRA. The only terrorist organisation shut down by America's declaration of war on terror. Of course that was possible because it was funded by normal, every day, God fearing Irish sympathisers in America. Once its funding was shut down it no longer existed.
To the point however - where are the bombs going off here? Demonstrate, with facts, any radical teaching being conducted among our muslum community? Your view of the world is that it happened in Britain so it must happen here. Your view encites problems which dont exist because it condems many on the behavour of a few. The few in this case not even living in New Zealand. Why cant you apply the same respect to muslums which you say you applied to the Irish? You didnt condemn all of them because of a few terrorists. That in my book is bigotry and is also irrational. |
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By: nadine.kramer@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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I just put these great words on another post, but would it not be good if true.
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult
Thanks for your lesson in how accepting the Muslim Religion is of other Religions. Can you tell me how many christian churches have been allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia lately? |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult
Here are a few thoughts for you to ponder on about your so called wonderful tolerant Religion.
I have lived with Muslims all my life. These are my observations,
1) Islam is a warrior religion. As per that religion, the ideal world will be ruled by Sharia & everybody will recognise ONLY ALLAH. Muslims are programmed to work towards that end. Islam allows them to adopt any means to achieve this goal. Because of this, certain things will be sins for a non-Muslim. But they are considered heroic & respectable by Muslim society. In short, Muslim moral system is completely different from that of any non-Muslim religion.
2) Muslims can live with ONLY Islamic social structure. By this structure, only MUSLIMS are entitled to the riches of the world. Only Muslims can enjoy the political power. In this ideal world, Muslims have extremely strict morality rules. They can not do any wrong to fellow Muslim, but if he does the same thing to fellow non-Muslims, it is perfectly moral. So, Islam is a political religion.
When Muslims have to live in the imperfect world of today (where they are minority), the situation becomes very confusing for a religious Muslim. In this situation, Muslims tend to live among themselves. They won't try to mix up with the majority society. They will very cleverly use the democratic rules of the land (alongwith human rights etc etc) & bend them for their own benefit.
There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Becacause of their strict social structure, only secular Muslims can be called a moderate. I personally know many Muslims, who are moderates. But the truth is, they are Muslims only by name. They NEVER go to mosque, they don't read Kuran. They don't dare to come out open in public with their true opinion, because Islam doesn't recognise reforms. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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| Rob, I'd love to be able to answer that question, but I am not resident in Saudi and regret I am unable to answer your question. I can, however, tell you that where I am living, we have St Andrew's Church approximately 500 metres away from one of the main mosques. A similar distance away is a Bhuddist temple. All appear to be well attended by their respective parishoners. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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Rob, it seems that your experience of Islam has been on an extremely narrow front. Your experiences are certainly almost diametrically opposed to my own. I guess that that is not surprising as there is a great diversity in the manner in which Christianity, Judaism and many other religions are interpreted and practised.
My position is simply one whereby I believe that tolerance of diversity and acceptance of difference should be encouraged. Negative stereotyping and baseless fears serve none of us any good. It is the fear of the unknown and that which we misunderstand that has so often been the cause of hatred and conflict. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult
Those are lovely PC thoughts of yours ,and if the Muslim religion was accepting of change, tolerance and modernization I would agree with you. However they are not so in that end your thoughts and ideas will always remain a fantasy. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult
Those are lovely well meaning thoughts of your ,and if the Muslim religion was accepting of change, tolerance and modernization I would agree with you. However they are not so in that end your thoughts and ideas will always remain a fantasy. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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Rob,
I AM living in a Muslim nation and I AM surrounded by all aspects of Islam on a daily basis. I am living, working and breathing in an Islamic society, at least I can comment on real and current aspects of what Muslims and Islamic society are like.
Nothing I have said is a fantasy. I am saying it straight as I am experiencing it. I'm not quite sure where you get your Islamic experiences from, nor how current they are.
Unlike you, I have not dismissed your point of view as a fantasy. If you read carefully what I have said previously, I have stated that your experiences with Islam are diametrically opposed to my own experiences, but that is to be expected within any religion that has encompassed so many people across the globe. I have not endeavoured to dismiss the vailidity of your experiences or opinion.
Your dismissal of my experiences and opinion of Islam as 'fantasy' do you no justice. It appears that your lack of tolerance and apparent inability to accept diversity sets you aside with so many of the other anti-Islam bigots that exist within the world today. That is most unfortunate and it is one of the prime reasons why there is so much hatred and mistrust between religions and cultures. |
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