By: naffock
25/09/2008
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| Jdyhrberg Your view also manages to mis interpret what I have said and you assume too much. As I said - I had many Muslin friends and still have 2 very good friends - Al Kalifa in Saudi, Suhail in Lebanon - I talk to them regularly on the internet. I will talk to them, but neither of them will talk to my friend Andrew purely because he is a Jew from the Bronx. Strange that. Your leap from IRA to bombs in New Zealand is also reasonably irrational in the context of the post. What happened in Britain should not happen here, but the lessons should be learned or we are doomed to make the same mistakes. If you don't at least acknowledge what has happened elsewhere the chances of making the same mistakes are increased. Or, as the other fulla said that I read this morning, are you just going to keep feeding the crocodile? |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult
Can I ask what Muslim Nation? Some are way more tolerant than others. For instance Jordan, Malaysia, Dubai.
Totally different to Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan,and even Egypt.
The devout Muslims dont recognise the tolerant Muslims countries as real Muslims and they come back to Sharia law as their reasoning there in lies the problem.
I don't like seeing women buried to waist and stoned to death. Honour Killings going unpunished. I believe women should be allowed to be well educated. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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I am living in SE Asia. Previously, I had the benefit of experiencing Islam in Mid-East nations - Sudan, Oman, Bahrain, Syria. I think that my mix of experience with Islamic nations does give me the opportunity to comment in a balanced fashion on this issue.
Yes, you are quite correct there are different ways in which Islam is practised, not just between individuals, but even within Islamic nations. That is exactly the point I have been making. As with many others, your comments, until now, haven't sufficiently acknowledged this very important fact.
The issues you have referred to in regard to Sharia Law are at an extreme end of the spectrum. However, there are also extremes in the practise of Christianity. Take but two issues - abortion and contraception - and reflect upon the behaviour of Christians with respect to these issues.
Contraception and abortion have been issues that have been used to justify all kinds of deeds and misdeeds, in the name of Christianity around the world. It is not only Muslims who are capable of killing their own and denying opportunities to women. We need not look far past Eire (to name but one country) to recognise this.
Has this made you condemn Christianity as you would condemn Islam? |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult I don't personally believe in abortion full stop unless it was a rape case.
I would hate to think what would happen in a strict Muslim Country if the girl fell pregnant
.She would die the baby and the Male would get off free.
I don't agree with you in terms of Christianity they don't go around killing anywhere as near as many people in the name of Christianity.
The Muslim religion is not a peaceful religion unlike the Buddhist and Hindus.
There is no repentance in the Muslim religion there in lies the problem. At the end of the day you will remain an infidel unless you convert to their religion |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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Rob,
Where have you been all of your life? How can you make such an inane statement that Christians don't go around killing in the name of Christianity.
Ever heard of the Crusades? Maybe that's a bit too historical for you.
How do you explain away North Ireland's 'troubles'?
What about the Balkan conflicts in more recent times?
Perhaps I missed something here, but I seem to recollect Christians being involved in all of these and fighting for their cause - the motivation was as religious as it was political in each case.
You state that Christians don't kill 'as near as many people' in the name of Christianity. Is there a number below which is acceptable to kill in the name of your faith, and a number above which it is unacceptable to kill in the name of your faith? If so, which scripture is that prescribed in?
You state that the 'Muslim religion is not a peaceful religion.' Where do you place Christianity against your Yardstick of peaceful and violent religions?
You talk about the element of repentance in relation to Islam. It is an interesting concept - repentence - I'm aware of plenty of Christians who have committed pretty heinous acts 'safe' in the believe that they can trot along to the appropriate religious authority and 'repent'. Thus, they assuage their current 'sins' and then promptly head off to sin again. Are you trying to tell me that that is somehow a better way to live than to support the 5 pillars of Islam? |
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By: amy_summer2003
25/09/2008
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Rob
your friends are muslim in name only...which means they dont follow Islam as their religion..also every christian or religious person does recognize Allah being that Allah is God .. muslims are PROGRAMMED??gee thanks where do i plug in??...let me tell you something..for someone who has lived with muslims all your life you have a queer view of some of the Islamic teachings...its not your fault .. maybe its the fault of your so called muslim non religious friends..their example has obviously twarted your view of Islam..i am a muslim living in a non muslim country .. where is the Islamic structure that you spoke of..muslims are not allowed to do anything wrong to anyone not just their fellow muslims..even in times of war there are strict rules to follow ensuring captives are well cared for..secular means non religious .. what is a secular muslim again? moderate? i dont think so...those who do commit atrocities claim to do it in the name of Allah but i want to tell you they follow their own designs and ideologies.. |
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By: amy_summer2003
25/09/2008
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ohh and by the way Rob
there are 800,000 catholics in saudi arabia all of whom are foreigners..King Abdullah has given permission for the first catholic church to be built there after meeting with the Pope..something of a monumental move i would say..ummm hang on are catholics christians? or is it still protestants and catholics ..can someone tell me please.. |
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By: jdyhrberg70
25/09/2008
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| naffock - you introduced the IRA element into our discussion. I point out when those terrorists were doing their base, nasty business people here weren't afraid of Catholics or Protestants and few people (such as Robert Fisk) pointed out that America funded IRA terror against England for the decades it occured. One positive at least that came out of 9/11 was it put and end to that dirty business. I agree with everything else you said - we should be prepared to learn from mistakes and not repeat them. Society is continually growing and evolving, we went through 100 years of countries seeking self determination from colonical rule during which the modern muslum states were created by foreign Western powers for their own ends. Much change is needed and will eventually occur. It is the process of how that occurs that we have a choice to make a stand on today. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Amy
Thanks for that the first church wowwwweeee I'm excited can you tell me how your going to get 800000 people into it. Or are they trying to stifle other religions? If theirs is perfect what do they have to be afraid of? |
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By: amy_summer2003
25/09/2008
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| what you on about willis???? |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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Catapult
Firstly I said nearly as many lets talk facts, How many Christians do you think might be on the most wanted terrorism list? How many Muslims might be on it? Wonder why that is weren't they breast fed as babies.
Lets give you a history lesson
The crusades the main one was when they drove the Muslims out of Spain and cleansed the country praise god for that!!!
The Irish war wasn't so much about the religion as Irish versus the English.
Catholics mainly Irish Protestants mainly English.
If you didn't know the Irish hate the English because they tried to starve them to death you ever heard of the Potato famine.
The Balkans you have totally f###ed up it was about Nationalism not Religion you t**t . Which by the way is just as dangerous |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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| Amy I'm glad you are a Muslim do you believe in female circumcision? Honour killings, The stoning to death of women if they have an affair? By the way the bloke gets off Scot free. How about pointing the animals towards mecca while you slit their throats i'm sure the sheep love that.Or what about the fact if a bloke is feeling a little randy and he is away from home he can sign a little agreement to have a bit on the side for the night then rip it up in the morning thats alright with ALLA but what would happen if a woman did that |
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By: helenahira@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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seanmichaels:
Thank you for that as I hate the sight of those effen burqas, they ban them in France now, should do that here, ops sorry forgot that is pc. Hehehe |
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By: regan.gibbons@ymail.com
25/09/2008
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| After reading the many posts on this discussion board, with its many laughable reasons all I've learn't is that religious discrimination is alive and well in NZ. I wouldn't be surprised if you started advocating for the expulsion of h**osexuals, after all you wouldn't want to "catch the gay" |
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By: nafnafkaboom
25/09/2008
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| Just give it up. These poor deluded sods can try and do what they like but who really cares about a religion started by a devil worshiping, murdering, epileptic kiddie fiddler |
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By: the_possum@xtra.co.nz
25/09/2008
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| As a Kiwi i dont have an issue with other races living here as long as they leave their troubles behind them.Its ok with me.And dont preach those heathen ways to me. |
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By: amy_summer2003
25/09/2008
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Rob you are just baiting..
Honour killings are cultural not Islamic in the sense that they are usually commited because shame has been brought to the family. It is not part of Islamic teachings..
Female circumcision
There is no reference to female circumcision in the Quran, however it is obligatory for men to be circumcised usually before the age of five. The custom of female mutilation was already in place before Islam spread into that vicinity; however it was not prohibited by Islam so the practice continued. It was not instituted by Islamic teachings in fact the right of a woman to sexual satisfaction in marriage is upheld in Muslim interpretations.
Stoning of unfaithful women – first instituted in the Jewish religion then in the Bible and then in Islam..adultry is punishable by death however, it is not a common practice as its part of the shari’ah law that as a whole is to my knowledge still kept in Saudi Arabia. it also applies to men so I don’t know where you got your information from. I guess the incentive there is to keep yourself purely for your spouse.
An animal to face Mecca before slaughter is correct. The slaughter of animals in Islam is humanely exercised. What is your point about facing the animal to Mecca? This practice is in accordance with Sunnah.
A Mouta marriage was instituted in times of war while the men were away from their wives. This was in the form of a contract between the parties involved. It was instituted by the Quran. In Islam marriage is based on sincerity not sex. |
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By: amy_summer2003
25/09/2008
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| ooops sorry reference to mouta marriages IT WAS NOT INSTITUTED BY THE QURAN. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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Rob,
Your 'take' on history is about as perverse as you are. I can see that you are certainly not a History teacher and I would therefore be rather daft to accept a history lesson from you.
Why don't you try telling the Irish Protestants that they are English. Try that in Belfast and you'll end up with a blooded nose - if you're lucky.
The Balkans was not just about nationalism. As is so patently evident your 'take' on history has huge holes right the way through it. Why do you think the 'ethnic cleansing' was taking place? It wasn't based upon nationalism, it was rooted in religious hatred and persecution. Don't believe me? Not surprised, your ignorance has been showing all through this debate.
You have failed to answer some critical questions that i posed to you before. Again, not surprised, too tough for you and your bigotted view on religion.
Exactly how many Muslims can a Christian legitimately kill in the world according to Robaman? |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
25/09/2008
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| The most alarming aspect of the Stone Age mentality that you exhibit Rob is that, if there is ever to be any religious extremism in NZ, that blossoms into violence, it will no doubt be sparked by the likes of you. And, if that occurs, you will be completely oblivious to the role you have played in generating misunderstanding, distrust and ill-will. |
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By: jdyhrberg70
26/09/2008
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Rob - your knowledge of history is as good as your knowledge of Islam. It seems to me when a person has a choice to make friends or enemies and they choose the later they have made the wrong choice.
Catapault - Your posts are most interesting and informative, thank you. I agree completely with your last post - if sectarian violence comes to NZ it fermented and incited by these arm chair warriors with their ignorance, small fears and intolerance. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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Amy great about the Mouta marriage but the men are still using it to this day I know some that do.
Tell me are you allowed a Mouta marriage to have a wee bit on the side why Hubby is away as long as your sincere about it must be ok (your words not mine)
ALLAH will be ok with it Im sure after all men and women are treated so equally under the Muslim Religion (Developed by Men for Men) |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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Here is one Muslim that manged to save his life after converting to Christianity. Isn't interesting how the theme is the same everywhere. Democracy is the Enemy of Islam I know I would rather live in a democratic Country thanks.
Daniel Shayesteh was not long graduated from the University of Tehran when on Nov. 4, 1979, 500 students siezed the American embassy in the capital of Iran.
He sympathized with their cause and indirectly supported it, but refrained from bullying the Americans. Not because it was wrong, but because he felt that westerners needed to be kept unaware of the deep hatred Muslims held for them. Mr. Shayesteh, 50, grew up in northern Iran, along the coast of the Caspian Sea. Once a Qur’anic teacher and scholar, Mr. Shayesteh earned a doctorate in international business in Turkey.
Now a Christian, converting after he fled Iran, Mr. Shayesteh travels the world decrying what he considers the dangers of Islam. Last Sunday, he spoke at Westgate Chapel Christian and Missionary Alliance in Toledo.
“Committed Muslims want [westerners] not to have knowledge of Islam,” he said in an interview. “Democracy is against the values of Islam. [Muslims] say that Allah is the ultimate value-maker; he already has a law and democratic law is not higher than Sharia, the law of Allah.”
Through the last half of the 1970s and into the early 1980s, Mr. Shayesteh was a member of a group called the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement. They set about helping to oust the Shah of Iran and install the Islamic mullahs.
Once they succeeded, however, the new regime under the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini turned and went after him.
Any Muslim who denies allegiance to Islam and its founder Mohammed can expect three outcomes: ostracism, imprisonment, or death, Mr. Shayesteh said.
“You do not have a right to reject Islam if you come from [an Islamic] family,” he said.
By 1980, Khomeini sat at the pinnacle of power in Iran. Mr. Shayesteh became the ch ... |
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By: lorier_may
26/09/2008
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| Catholics are Christian no matter what other demonimations say (especially the Baptists and J. W.s), the last Crusade was 600-700 years ago we need to get over that, and Muslims are not a threat to anyone else here. I think we all need to sit down and have a cup of Tea and cool off a bit. |
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By: rixatcrf
26/09/2008
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| New Zealanders moan about fundamental Christians, who will at most give you a headache. A fundamental muslim will take your head off! |
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