By: ropativ
26/09/2008
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| When I was living and working in the middle east for more than a year, there were Christmas Cards being sold in shops and the streets during the Christmas Period even though these countries were mainly politically troubled islamic nations...the tolerance for other religion and other people's beliefs is well and alive in the islamic regions....I have a Christian friend in Iraq, and their community is well and safe, even during Saddam's regime. The same is happening in Iran. I for one, am truly amazed at how powerful the media is, when it comes to that...these uninformed people have to go there and live it before they can pas judgement based on media coverage only.... |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
26/09/2008
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Inbred,
The reason some of us entered this debate was to counter the vitriolic nonsense that was being spouted about Islam and Muslims by other parties on here. Allowing inaccurate and unbalanced criticism of Islam and Muslims (or any other group for that matter) to go answered is only likely to further increase the unwarranted fear and allow injustices to continue. Many times in history, it has been the failure of decent people to speak out against injustice that has allowed tyranny to prevail.
You are, however, absolutely correct in what you say about actions being committed in the NAME of Belief. All too often, we have seen this occur, individuals and groups proclaiming that their actions are justified by a somewhat arbitrary interpretation of a faith.
Your third to last sentence is right on the money. |
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By: ropativ
26/09/2008
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| When Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt with baby Jesus, they stayed in Cairo until it was safe to return back to Jerusalem. To date, Egypt as an Islamic Country, is still preserving the place where the couple and their baby settled...a Church of Abu Serghis is built over the place that was home to Jesus and his parents while in Egypt....can't say that these islamic countries are not tolerant of other religion (or non-religious groups).... |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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Catapult
You really shock me with you Knowledge of History to label Hitler and the Third Reich Christians . To say that the Holocaust was done because of Christianity you must be mad. I hope you aren't teaching students that rubbish. It was again done because of Nationalism same as The Balkans where they Killed Christians Croats, and Muslims alike they werent fussy. Please spare me anymore of your warped History lesson because they are truly sad. |
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By: planza5133
26/09/2008
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You are right inbreddolt, Perhaps, these arguements still can be positive. This is a forum where we let out our viewpoints regardless of how we see it. There are times when the end arrived to new ideas or perspectives that best educate us to relate to the Muslim world. Forget about the extremist, we find them everywhere. Religion, we all have issues when it comes to belief which is the main problem. That is when people starting to expect change in others based on set beliefs.
The good thing that came out of this arguement, debate and critics, we all agree that there are good Muslims in the Islamic world.
To hear the westerners living in the Middle East gave feed back, the better it is for us. Don't that makes us wondered about the quality of news we hear and read? Media!!!! |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
26/09/2008
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Rob,
Not surprisingly, you have failed to READ and UNDERSTAND what I wrote. At no stage have I ever said the Holocaust was caused BECAUSE of Christianity. I said that it was something that the National Socialists, MANY OF WHOM WERE Christians, did in pursuit of their ideals. The point here, which you have so clearly missed, is that Christians, are as capable of the horrors (and then some) that you so willingly ascribe to Muslims in your fear-mongering.
It is often a fine line between political and religious persecution. All too often, the former has been used to justify the latter. If you take your head out of your back_side you might have more light to read by and not make yourself look like such a prat with your inane outbursts. |
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By: planza5133
26/09/2008
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I like how you said that jdyhrberg70. One gives headache and the other take off the head lol. Sure thing.
Wonder what its like putting them together in a room and see who will come out with or with out a head lol. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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Catapult
Thanks but I think your association between Nationalism and Christians is abhorrent and a little rich can you tell me how they followed the Ten Commandments? Where in the Koran it tells you that you can kill for Allah. I hear the Muslims like the backside a fair bit I don't care to go there much I prefer to look at the Sun Light. |
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By: nafnafkaboom
26/09/2008
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If I am such a bad person, help me to understand. Help me through a couple of things by explaining these. I am only looking for clarification, not an argument.
Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam"
Qur'an 8:59 "The infidels should not think they can get away from us. Prepare agaisnt them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy"
Qur'an 8:60 "and make ready agoant the infidels all of the power you can, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Qur'an 5:33 The punishment for making mischief in the land (refusing to surrender to Islam) is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cuting off of hands and feet on opposite sides of the body or imprisonment.
Just curious. |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
26/09/2008
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Rob,
Whilst you may be upset to consider that some Christians could be associated with any Nationalistic political movement, the intertwining of political and religious beliefs is a common thread throughout many societies. The fundamental issue here is that you have taken an entirely distasteful anti-Islamic stance, projecting hateful, ill-researched and grossly incorrect assertions about Muslims and their faith. Apparently, the only qualification you have to support your opinions is a loud and irritating manner.
It is extremely unfortunate that it is the actions of those of similar ilk to yourself that have, all too often, been sufficient to ferment the fears and insecurities of the less-well-informed around them. As these fears and insecurities grow, fuelled by the rhetoric of ne'er-do-wells, persecution (religious and political) grows. This is then used as the excuse for the next step - violence against the groups and individuals targetted (in this case Muslims and Islam).
Your last sentence is a rather gross example of the depths to which your ignorance will allow you to descend, rather than engage in a well-researched and informed debate. Although, I do note that you have used the qualifying word 'much' - so clearly you do not entirely rule out your venturing to the place stated. Perhaps, as with so much of the tripe you have posted, there are degrees of 'acceptability' for such activities on Robaman's scale? |
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By: lorier_may
26/09/2008
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| Uuummm catapult...The N*zis party was a secular insitiution NOT a religous one. And a lot of the belifs held were base on Hindu teaching. The symbol the N*zis used was a hindu symbol. (I'm not blaming the Hindu religon here for the N*zis stole the belifs and symbols for their own insane purpose. As well as 4 million + Jews they also killed several prominant Christians such as Father Maximillian Kolbe who died in a Concentration Camp in Poland, many Russian soliders died in the concentration camps. A prominant Protestant Christian leader (I can't remenber was brutally executed as well. This was not a Crusade. |
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By: lorier_may
26/09/2008
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| Woops I didn't edit that very well (Fridayitis). There needs to be a ) after purpose and "his name)" needs to go after remember |
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By: lorier_may
26/09/2008
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| I also think we need to leave Muslims alone, this country has a policy of free religon whether you like it or not. |
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By: lorier_may
26/09/2008
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| Oh and another thing to all the people who are b-t-hing on about Islam (leave the them alone to worship how they want). Before you take the splinter out of someone's eye take the plank out of your own. |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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lori-may - trouble is they won't leave the innocents alone
they plant bombs anywhere there are civilians and cannot be trusted sorry but they all get tarred with same brush |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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Nafna
Exactly what I was saying a warrior Religion not one of Peace.
The doctrine of Abrogation is one of the most important doctrines when it comes to understanding Islam
"And for whatever verse we abrogate and cast into oblivion; We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?
Sura 2:106
Abrogation basically means in Islam, is that the newer Suras which are better than the older Suras, are to be be obeyed. While the older Suras are not to be obeyed, if there is a conflict of commands between them...
The importance of this particular doctrine of abrogation cannot be understated. In a mosque in the city of Kufa, Ali b. Abi Talib, one saw people gathering around the judge, Abdur-Rahman. The judge was confusing that which is permissible with that which is not. Ali asked him whether he could tell the abrogative verses from the abrogated; he said that he could not. Ali then grabbed the man's ear, twisted it, and said: "you perish, and you make others perish. Do not judge in our mosque anymore."
Since we now know understand the doctrine of Abrogation in Islam and it's importance, a question should arise..."Are there any verses that are newer than Sura 2:256 in the Quran? As we examine the various texts from the Quran, the answer is "yes"...Let's look at the newer verses....
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" Sura 8:39
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors". Sura 2:190
"And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter" Sura 2:191
"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression". Sura 2:193 |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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a few more facts for you
This may surprise some people but in the beginning of Islam, the Jihad, was not allowed....No Muslim at this time was commanded to take up arms against his enemy...But these newer verses changed this whole concept completely, and gives Muslims the right of self defense, or to wage war against nations which it has no treaty with...
More quotes from the Quran include, "Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Sura 4:89
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Sura 9:29
"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans.
If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith." Sura 9:3
Here we see in Sura 9:29, the Quran ordering Muslims to fight in order to establish Allah’s kingdom on earth (all of the earth) by any means. Most Islamic scholars are in agreement that one verse of the Quran (9:5) abrogates 124 verses, which are basically all the verses that talk about peace and forgiveness. Speaking of Sura 9:5, here it is, and I quote...
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" Sura 9:5
As we see clearly in this verse (which is commonly called the ver ... |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
26/09/2008
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Lorier,
The N*zis were a political movement, you are absolutely correct. Again, I reiterate, at no stage have I ever stated, or inferred, that the N*zis were a religious movement. What I have stated is that there were many within the National Socialists who were practicising Christians. This is an inescapable fact. It is also true that there were many agnostics, atheists, pagans, cultists and all sorts of others who were National Socialists.
You also absolutely to correct to state that many Christians were persecuted by the National Socialists. In fact, there were few groups that did not receive some form
persecution under the National Socialist regime. It is, however, indisputable that any single group received a greater and more widespread persecution than the Jews.
My point here, as it has been all along, is that one of the worst crimes against humanity, in recent history was perpetrated by a movement that encompassed many Christians within its membership. The reason I raised this issue was to indicate that the entries in here that sought to paint Muslims as the forces of evil, were extremely blinkered in the way that they advanced their cause, and conveniently overlooked outrages in which Christians had a hand - either tacitly or otherwise.
I stand by my early remarks that the Holocaust was a crusade. I have deliberately used a lowercase 'c' in my use of this word. In your case, you have used an uppercase 'C' and I would agree that it was not a Crusade.
The Swastika was BASED UPON a symbol that is used widely by Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. The orientation and style of the National Socialist's swastika and that used by those for religious purposes does differ.
It is great to have your contribution to this debate Lorier. |
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By: robaman@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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| So with those new Suras being issued you can see there will never be a marriage made in Heaven between the West and the Muslims Countries because they have to obey their doctrine. Any one who thinks any thing else is deceived |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
26/09/2008
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Chrisan,
That's exactly the problem - people like you are prepared to 'tar everyone with the same brush'. By doing so, you become the very same as those you are condemning. By your very words, you don't care to 'leave the innocents alone.'
That being the case Chrisan, you've pretty much destroyed any credibility you might once have had. |
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By: inbreddolt
26/09/2008
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| Catapault, I would also reiterate that the N*zis had Christian members only in name and not in deed. They were not Christian by any measure that I know. If the National Socialists had Christian members then Osama Bin Laden is a moderat Muslim by the same crtiteria. |
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By: beatific@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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robaman, your 'proof' disproves your point.
first of all, you should get an authentic translation.
second of all, all the verses you have come up with have condoned war in DEFENSE, so that there will be JUSTICE, and the muslims will be FREE TO WORSHIP.
islam doesnt have the 'turn the other cheek' policy when it comes to justice and freedom.
Jihad is often mistranslated.
it doesnt mean war. jihad is a very broad concept.
war is HARB.
jihad means struggle. it means giving from your wealth, effort and time to establish islam in your daily life.
that's all there is to it.
and KITAL doesnt mean kill.
it means FIGHT IN COMBAT.
these simple mistranslations can make a whole lot of difference.
you mentioned all the verses condoning 'violence' but you failed to mention that when the muslims finally entered mecca, (which were what the verses were referring to, the war between the meccans and the muslims) the prophet peace be upon him, didnt kill a soul. he didnt take captives. he told the people of mecca, who prosecuted, killed and tortured muslims for 17 years, to go, that they are free.
you should see the biography of the prophet sometime.
you will find many stories there that should enlighten you as to the way the quran was put into practice. |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
26/09/2008
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| catapult: my credibility was blown long ago but I still march on foot in mouth |
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By: catapault@rocketmail.com
26/09/2008
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Inbred,
Why are you guys in such a state of denial? Does the thought that Christians are not all picture-perfect sit so uncomfortably with you? The N*zis were a POLITICAL movement with certain ideological beliefs. WITHIN this movement there were many Christians. These Christians were inexorably LINKED to the deeds of the political movement with which they affiliated themselves. It is as simple as that. It is no different to being a card-carrying member of the Labour Party and also being a Christian. The two are not legally incompatible. The question of morality ultimately sits with the individual.
The issue remains that which I have stated previously. There were Christians within the National Socialist movement, who are culpable in regard to the Holocaust. That, in my opinion, was a far greater crime against humanity (in recent history) than ANYTHING that any of the WRITERS on HERE have been able to positively prove is a reason for stirring up fear and hatred of Islam as a religion and Muslim people as a whole.
If one were to accept the rationale of the anti-Islamic authors on here, then a very strong case against Christianity could be advanced, based upon the actions of a few 70-odd years ago. I don't propose that we do that. Neither do I accept the BS that has been trouted out here against Islam by the great unwashed.
The off-the-cuff remarks about Osama Bin Laden you make are exactly that, off-the-cuff nonsense. Your fear of that extremist radical who, unjustifiably, claims he is acting according to the tenets of the Islam faith, is absolutely no reason to take a swipe at the many millions of Muslims, worldwide who know exactly what the 5 Pillars of Islam require of them and I would happily have any of them as neighbours any day, over the likes of yourself. |
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By: lorier_may
26/09/2008
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Thanks for your reply catapult you have stated good points that I completely agree with. (Diversion from topic of discussion) One thing you might not know the "Swastika" (thanks for showing me how to spell that) was also used by the British Boy Scouts until the start of Second World War as a medal. I have seen one with my own eyes. (Back to topic)the person who said that Muslims don't leave inocents alone. Do you have any evidence to suggest that there are Islamist Terroist cells active in NZ targeting inocents? If not I say again LEAVE Muslims ALONE! (I'm a practicing Christian by the way).
(The next bit is not targeted at you catapult)
To the person who is quoting the Koran in a way to make Muslim seem bad. That is not helpful at all in this debate if one can call it that. If you look in the Bible you will see many examples of extreme violence to "Unbelievers" sanctioned by God so it seems like the pot calling the kettle black. If you are a Christian then to point the finger at another in condemnation goes against what I said earlier which was a quote from Bible. Take the plank out of you eye first. "Judge not or you will be judged in the same way" Mathew 17. "Love your enemies". "Do good to those who do you wrong" (harping on about how bad Muslims are is NOT "doing good" by the way). So I say again LEAVE MUSLIM ALONE! |
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