By: chris_phoenix_nz
30/09/2008
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So tearing your arguement appart bit by bit.
"the abolition of the seats must be a decision made by Maori.
The seats themselves represent the changing relationship between New Zealand and its indigenous population."
So this is saying that the people who benefit from them the most are the ones who have to vote them away. Thats like asking beneficiaries to vote themselves less money.
"This is because those who filled these seats are generally viewed as dedicated advocates in Parliament for Maori.
Maori saw that opportunity and chose to retain it. Now that the Maori seats have some influence on the political face of New Zealand the group who originally benefited from their existence are now are calling for their abolition amid the public�s accusations of 'race based privileges'."
Wrong, its not the race that created them. The race that created them were Brits from the UK int he 1900s. The group asking them to be recalled are New Zealanders of multiple ethnicities (I have seen Maori on this thread supporting their removal also BTW).
"Maori are the original inhabitants of NZ, tangata whenua, people of the land. There is only one place in the world where Maori belong, and that is NZ. "
What about the 200,000+ Maori who live quite happily in Australia?
"The idea of One land, one law, one people is a myth, because what this really means in NZ is European land, European law, European people."
No, it means NEW ZEALAND law and NEW ZEALAND land and NEW ZEALAND people.
"They need representation...and not just by Maori MP's who are firstly loyal to their European parties. "
Awesome, now there is this party called the Maori Party who have no European masters. Are you saying that the Maori party are incapable of representing Maori? |
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By: autotarget
30/09/2008
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Chrisphoenix you should have put more thought into your argument.
Firstly, the 200,000 Maori in Aussie have moved on, but NZ will always be their homeland. Just like the Chinese here can always go back to China, the Samoans to Samoa.
The Maori culture was born in New Zealand. The first native settlers were groups of people that came from various migratory areas and over hundreds of years evolved into the Maori race - so there is nowhere else in the world that Maori can truly call "HOME".
Of course the abolition of the seats must be a decision made by Maori - thats why Pakeha have been unable to get rid of them although theyve been trying to for over 100 years.
"Race based privileges" means that Pakeha blame Maori for the creation of the Maori seats and claim it is a "special priviledge".
New Zealand Law IS European law created by Pakeha who view the world through Eurocentric spectacles.
The Maori party are able to survive because of the Maori seats. |
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By: november93rain
30/09/2008
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| What some of you don't realise is that a lot of the Scholarship money that Maori students receive is actually unclaimed land dividends from Maori land owners. |
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By: autotarget
30/09/2008
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| Pakeha dont wanna know that the Maori scholarships are paid out from Treaty settlment money or land dividends. Because if they did know that then they wouldnt be able to accuse Maori of having "Special privileges" |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
30/09/2008
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Auto:
Race Based Privilages doesn't mean that New Zealanders (the term Pakeha refers only to non-maori and I have seen Maori in this thread supporting the removal of the seats) deny they were created by Europeans. However it does mean that the creation was done to try and provide some equality at the time to Maori (lets face it, they could have just done thing and not given Maori ANY say at all). Now, 100 years later, Maori don't require those seats to have equality.
I suggest you read the post where I posted the stuff from wikipedia about the Maori seats. Especially the part that stated the seats were originally created with the intention of them lasting 5 years, until Maori understood the concept of European land ownership.
I would say that Maori now fully understand the concept of European land ownership and as such the need for the seats is no longer.
Its interesting you say that the Maori party are only able to survive because of the Maori seats. That says to me that under 5% (the threshold for entering govt under MMP) of the Maori population support the Maori party.
It seems Maori want the best of both worlds in the end. They want to vote for the major parties like Labour or National but at the same time get their other views in via the Maori seats.
Question: Would you oppose non-maori enrolling on the Maori role?
Alternatively would you oppose the set up of the following electoral roles so that others who have just as much right to call New Zealand their home have an equal say:
New Zealander
Asian
Pacific Islander
Indian |
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By: november93rain
30/09/2008
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| You need to travel the world if you haven't already not every country in the world is moving ahead in leaps and bounds. Maori are more sofisticated than you give then credit for. Look out for the next generation, they will be so clued up. Their rights to be taught in the own language have certainly been fought for, because of this they are more geared up to a world that once denied them of their language and the knowledge of things Maori. You heard of assimulation? That was the Pakeha plan so that Maori would be like Pakeha. Thank God it never worked. You need to read a bit of history to wonder why Maori of got to the point where they are now. If you haven't already. |
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By: november93rain
30/09/2008
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| Yes I know they don't want to know. They are just living in denial. |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
30/09/2008
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Hey question Auto:
You stated
"We are not all the same, and because of these differences we need to learn to co-exist. Therefore, Maori need a voice in Parliament. They need representation...and not just by Maori MP's who are firstly loyal to their European parties."
Outside of the ToW issues which are being resolved, what other differences do you see that would prevent us having one country with one set of seats to represent all? |
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By: autotarget
30/09/2008
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Chrisphoenix you totally missed my point(s)
I resent your statement that Parliament created the Maori seats for the benefit of Maori to establish some 'equality'. The Maori Representation Act established a MERE 4 Maori seats ina 76 seat Parliament. 4 seats is a ridiculous concession givent that on a per capita basis where Maori still outnumbered the Pakeha settlers Maori deserved 14 to 16 members.
In the 1950's to 1960's the National govt threatened to abolish the Maori seats. Some politicians described special representation as a form of apartheid, like South Africa.
It is important to knowt that apartheid is a system of institutionalised racism, like South Africa that oppressed a black majority and shut it out of public life. In NZ for long periods of our history, had it not been for the Maori seats Parliament would have been a Maori FREE zone and effectively shut Maori out of Public Life. So, apartheid? I think NOT. |
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By: autotarget
30/09/2008
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Maori have different values, customs, traditions, protocols and even language than Pakeha.
I'll give you an example, a survey was done where a group of Maori were asked what their idea of security was. The Maori answered their family, friends, and support groups.
The group of Pakeha replied that their idea of security was their investments, insurance, savings accounts and retirement funds. |
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By: november93rain
30/09/2008
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| Its a pity the European did not understand the concept of what it is to be Maori. They only had one thing on their mind it was to take what they could. The Treaty was to control their own unlawful people at the time and it guanteed Maori would still have sovereignty of things Maori. But here we are 168 years later and the Pakeha still want control. |
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By: autotarget
30/09/2008
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In the end, what must be established is which form Maori parliamentary representation should take. Maori have also clearly stated over the years that the Maori seats are wanted and needed.
It is important that as a nation we realise that Maori continue to operate according to a distinctive set of cultural practices that can only be found here. Protecting and encouraging not only the survival but building the ongoing capacity for such distinctiveness to thrive is the only way that this country will see the turnaround of the negative social indices for Maori that trouble us all. This is not an overnight sensation achievable in a limited time frame. It will require change that must be driven by Maori and supported by everyone.
This is a key aspect of the role that Maori representatives in Parliament play. It is a role that simply cannot be undertaken by anyone or submerged into general electorates alongside general issues. We must keep the Maori seats and choose our representatives carefully in order to achieve a nation that values equity, success for Maori and by association a more peaceful and prosperous nation for us all. |
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By: nzsp@xtra.co.nz
30/09/2008
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| Auto target...Right on , bullseye |
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By: november93rain
30/09/2008
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| You are so right autotarget |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
30/09/2008
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I'll rephrase my question then:
In what way, in the areas that the government handles, do Maori differ so much from the rest of New Zealand that they require seperate representation other than ToW issues.
You mention values, customs, traditions etc however none of these are issues that the government deals with.
Crime - New Zealand wants criminals behind bars.
Education - New Zealand want their children educated so they can suceed both here and overseas.
Health - New Zealanders want a world class health system.
Enviornment - New Zealanders generally want NZ to keep is clean green image.
Do Maori want different things than those listed above? |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
30/09/2008
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In terms of what form of representation Maori want in government, whatever that is it should not exceed the number of Maori who want specific representation.
You obviously don't believe that the Maori Party would make it without the Maori seats which means you don't believe more than 5% of Maori want any specific representation.
As such whatever representation they have should not exceed that 5% mark. |
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By: dudleytate@xtra.co.nz
30/09/2008
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| Why cant maori have their own rugby team and go to the world cup to represent their country in the spirit of the game just like the welsh, scotish and english they are in the same peice of land same government. Most of the paicfic teams are made up of NZ based players, so if you dont make a nz national team other ethnicities can go off and play for their respective home countries. The maori seats should remain to ensure that we do not become fully assimilated. |
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By: november93rain
30/09/2008
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Phoenix read this and wonder why Maori are a bit ticked off
TWM Legislative Violations of the Treaty of Waitangi
------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- -----
The first 150 years
1840
Maori owned 66,400,000 acres of land
1841
Land Claims Ordinance stated that lands not actually occupied or used by the Maori belonged to the Crown. This contradicted Article 2 of the Treaty
1844
Governor Fitzroy dropped the pre-emption clause in Article 2 of the Treaty and allowed private sales to take place.
1846
Governor Grey abolished the Protectorate Department, which had the responsibility of protecting Maori rights, and gave the New Zealand Company the exclusive right of pre-emption.
1852
Maori ownership of land reduced to 34,000,000 acres.
In the 12 years since 1840 almost half of the Maori owned land had been lost.
1852
Constitution Act:
Saw the establishment of Provincial Government. Only males over 21 who had individual title to property of a certain value were entitled to vote. Very few Maori males were able to do so.
1859
Te Ati Awa Chief Teira sold the Governor land at Waiata without seeking the agreement of the other chiefs who had an interest in the land, especially the Senior Chief Wiremu Kingi. This was a breach of the Treaty's land guarantee.
1860
Maori Owned Land reduced to 21,4000,000 acres
1862
Native Lands Act:
Designed to break down Maori communal ownership of land. A land court was set up to individualise title. An ammendment to the act meant that Maori owners could sell to anyone. This breached the pre-emption clause in Article 2.
1863
Governor Grey invades the Waikato region.
Suppression of Rebellion Act:
No right to trial before imprisonment. Its intention was to punish "certain aboriginal tribes of the colony" for rebelling against the Crown.
New Zealand Settlement Act:
Over three million acres of Maori land was confiscated to ... |
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By: peopleunited77@ymail.com
30/09/2008
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chris_phoenix_nz:
Hopefully this response may answer the set of questions that you have posted.
As a teacher in the secondary arena in the area of Hamilton, as a Maori/Celt etc, and a promoter for the betterment of children and teenagers, regardless of who they maybe, indicate too you that the areas of social policy that you mention are currently still showing disproportionate numbers of Maori failure, in comparance too Non Maori counterparts.
It is not anything new in this country, and I must say it does not apply too all of those in Maoridom, as there are many who do not suffer like others, and have made the effort such as myself and siblings to embrace all of that which was provided to us by our generation prior to me, and those before them.
Not all were as fortunate as we were, and we did not get to where we were. from any handouts that you hear about. In other words there are those like us who did succeed and as a woman, I share the same wants and needs that these alarming statistics show in Maoridom to change!!
Maori as a people in this country are a minority, thats a fact, or those who choose to identify as Maori. Even though it is 2008, several as a result of generational laws etc..have not been able to move forward with a greater perecentage of other Maori. For this reason it is important that the figures drop, and this is what several of the settlements are directed toward, to achieve great improvement in these areas with strategic and analytical directives in many rohe/areas, iwi/tribes etc in this country.
There have been developmental changes which are slowly coming through, I do not speak for all, just those I work with and the area I hail from. For whatever reasons that are apparent these figures will steadily improve that is the wish and that is the desire. Maori want exactly what other Non/European people want as well!!
continued....(Environment ) |
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By: peopleunited77@ymail.com
30/09/2008
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The clean green image in this country is shared and enjoyed by all and the Maori aspiration is too keep it that way, it is not only a Maori/Non desire!!
Many groups of different ethnic persuasions are just as guilty of sullying the environment, not only Maori..
for example..Dairy Farming, Huntly coalmining, carbon emissions etc and so on, just to name a few other than the everyday Joe or Jenny blow!!
Conservation is an area that should concern all of NZ not just the Maori! and it too is included in many Maori developmental plans, proof of this can be found on any web page in your computer, or in any current book or newspaper.
Crime and the statistics for Maori suck, especially Maori men, and those of youth and not to mention Maori women are also guilty of this, not all thogh.
So to cut the never ending Stooooooooory short!
Yes! Maori figures are high because we are the minority in this country, yet our criminal activity is always out there for the country to read about, to watch on television etc, in accordance with the rest of the country, it is actually low, why? the number of Maori are less than that of their non Maori counterparts, the majority in this country, a fact chris_phoenix, not a fallacy!! these figures need to stop and start to fall, and one must admittedly say "Doesn't it make for interesting media hype- good old fashioned SENSATIONALISM!" spot the brownie on tele( no offence intended for any other Maori person reading this post). It is not an excuse I am offer, just read em and weep! because we surely do! So what are the Non Maori stats chris_phoenix?
Improvement will happen and the struggle will too, by those of us who do care for our country, like many others do as a team and hand in hand, thats the dream and hopefully it will come to fruition, with participation and co operation from those who share the vision, that of the future for Maori and non Maori alike in this country!
Achievable-Yes, that is my opinion and only mine..- |
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By: peopleunited77@ymail.com
30/09/2008
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and those of us in the generations that are present! so in a nut shell chris_phoenix, we the people of Aotearoa/Nz all want the same thing, a team effort to improve it all!
On behalf of my ancestors and those of the fifth generation that are still here with me and mine, those of us who are of Maori/Celt etc origins who affilliate to several iwi in the country through blood and birthright, for example our family.. Taranaki, Waikato, Bay of Plenty and the East coast and Ngai Tahu etc, and Scotland and England/Ireland etc, we want change and improvement like so many others, thats the vision and that is the dream!!
Maranga! Ake Ai! ae! Maori and Non Maori alike who are wanting change, it is for those of us to make it happen, because of of us that do not or who not suffered by embracing all that is good, are trying to make it all happen for the future generations of this country.
To Re iterate the old adage "Rome was not built in a day", so to dismantle Maori representation and that of the Maori Party idea and dream will only cause chaos and civil unrest, not a fallacy a fact! as my personal political persuasions are not the same as my current tupuna that are still here with me/us today, our dream is a shared one!
The future and it is currently looking a tad bleak if we let it! but like minded individuals will still keep it alive! that is the dream fulfilled, when it all ends and we are truly happy and at equal levels like many others in the majority! |
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By: peopleunited77@ymail.com
30/09/2008
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Chris_phoenix!
Not all maori are trapped in the past mentality, and will continue to struggle and strive like many others and learn to grow within and embrace everything given to them out of the past efforts of elders who are no longer here, moving ahead as a people and hand in hand with their Non Maori peers across all sectors!
Moreover, if it takes people like us in our generation and we are in our thirties, so be it!! Move ahead thats the story just keep on trucking and then maybe one day the Maori in Parliament like the Maori Party will truly be Part of the General Electoral Party system and the seats etc, be done away with! Is it a pipe dream? Only the future will tell! for it is today that sets tommorrows tasks!
An apology to former posters when my use of bad language appeared in earlier responses, sometimes it is used to give emphasis, because there are certain opinions that just dont warrant the actual usage of English, for they to contained certain abuses, scroll back and read and see for yourselves!
The wonders of the English Language! dont you just love it I do , and My Maori language as well and all of my Celtic origins! I and we embrace it all!! |
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By: peopleunited77@ymail.com
30/09/2008
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WASULLIVAN!!
I offer you another apology it is I who was using my aunties id and posted on the board, it was an error that was too late to retrieve, so I am sorry, my siblings and I had good teachers and role models in our lives and our current elders like our aunty and uncle and many others have been supported and assisted by them, and still are today with support and such like and for that we offer them the greatest respect, for our core values were instilled as small children and are still with us today.
My siblings and I are parentless and lost our mother as teenagers, we are all female and were in secondary and tertiary when our Mum died , so our father looked after us for the next twelve years and passed away last year and will not have the continued enjoyment of his grandaughter who is only five, this is our vision for her and others like us, so apologies Wasullivan, I did come across rather rudely, but our dreams are all the same one would imagine! |
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By: peopleunited77@ymail.com
30/09/2008
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| typo-we have" |
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By: kaitibakery
1/10/2008
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| Ahhh.Yes, but being bi cultural... will white America vote him in??? |
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