By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| NZ has to put this treaty stuff behind us as soon as we can, because the next major thing NZ has to face, is the cost of baby boomers set to retire. Someone has to work to pay tax to take care of them all. That means replacing the drain of NZ people going overseas. Thats why we have high numbers of immigration. These people will not like paying out to Maori for the privilege of being here, on top of paying for our elderly. More immigrants means more infrastructure to pay for too. Also, all buildings, roads, hydro dams, etc, etc, etc, have a limited life span that all need replacing, or up grading at some stage, and all this needs to be paid for too. |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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Pakeha created the Maori seats for their own greedy benefit in a time where Maori were not allowed to vote in their own country!!
All the racist policies in this country were devised by the Pakeha to promote Pakeha superiority...to control Maori...their lands...their natural resources etc etc!
So why are people blaming the existense of the Maori seats on Maori? Why are they using the Maori seats as ammunition for their "Maori always get special privileges" argument?
Dont get rid of the Maori seats. What are you scared of anyway? |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Phoenix: It's not about racism - it's about a CONTRACT
that is still HUGELY relevant in the modern world |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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So because its a contract its ok that its racist?
Its completely irrelevant in the modern world simply because none of the parties who signed it are around any more.
Even if you contest that it was signed by the chiefs of behalf of all Maori, that was all Maori of that time who are now all dead. Same with the crown and as has been pointed out the Crown no longer have any real power in NZ.
The deals that are being made are being made by the New Zealand Government at the cost of New Zealand tax payer money.
If Maori still feel aggrieved then that is an issue they should take up directly with the monarchy. |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Was: it's not 1 billion yet
"so in effect the TOW is null and void" NOT! (you just wish it was) Maori recognition of Art 2 of the Treaty is not a grievance. It's an ongoing contractual situation they are in with the Crown. And Maori do participate with non-Maori everyday all over the country regards those other things I mentioned in my previous post |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| The parties who signed are around in the form of their descendants who inherited their land and their forests and their fisheries and their..... and the Crown are still around that's for sure |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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Question Chrisan:
Why do the Maori still require the seats with the creation of the Maori party? Do they simply not trust the Maori party to give them proper representation in Parliament. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget
I will bounce it back and ask, What are Maori scared of by loosing their seats? Maori dont need special seats beyond sorting out the past treaty issues. They still have the Maori party, like the Christians, and the Greenies have their party etc. If enough other people find merit in what a candidate puts forward, they will be elected to affect change. I just love living in a democracy, dont you?. It sure beats Civil war. The arguement that Maori always get special treatment is valid, because they do. Asians dont ask for special treatment, They have been here almost as long as the first settler decendants have, They just put their heads down, get an education and work for it, like everyone else. |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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The Treaty of Waitangi (a Pakeha Document) is the FOUNDING DOCUMENT OF NEW ZEALAND. Simple Simon.
The Maori Seats (a Pakeha creation) were established to control Maori, and to limit their voice as the Pakeha were afraid they could be voted out of Parliament since the Maori were still the majority at this time.
Anyway, Pakeha have been trying to get rid of the Maori seats they created for their convenience since 1902. It aint gonna happen. |
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By: jakfeb
29/09/2008
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NZ is supposedly a fully multicultral country. The rising numbers of people with different ethnic backgrounds makes this very difficult. Whilst the country lets people of different ethnic origins have different rights and rules we will never be truly multicultural.
The existince of such things as parliamentary maori seats are not good to have in todays modern society if we want to be truly multicultural.
I think they should no longer exist. By the way I am Maori |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget:
Do you really believe that anyone in NZ has the power to limit the voice of Maori now? In the day and age of digital media, cellphones etc do you really believe Maori would be silenced simply by the removal of the Maori seats?
If that is the case then you obviously believe that Maori are unable to adapt to the modern world. |
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By: jakfeb
29/09/2008
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| who mentioned silencing them by removing the seats |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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Wassullivan your strong and very stereotypical implications are offensive. Never in my or my 200 family members lives have we asked for special treatment. Like the Asians you mentioned I also put my head down and got an education.
How can Pakeha commit such a racist act by creating seats that will ensure Pakeha remain in power, and then moan about it 150yrs later and question why Maori have special privileges? Pakeha did it to control Maori! To take over the country and silence the natives within! How is that a special privilege!! |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Answer Phoenix:
Election Time
General Seats - please tick the party you want
Maori Party
Labour
National
Act
Will you be ticking Maori party? Maori are a minority and the Maori Party would not get in general seats and the Maori that vote for them do so as they concentrate solely on the betterment of Maori - by the way Maori pay well over and above their share of taxes did you know |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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| jakefeb, what has that got to do with the price of milk? What you should be saying is NZ is a MULTICULTURAL country with a BICULTURAL HERITAGE. I dont understand your point. And I dont give a damn what culture you are |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan
The final bill to the claims is estimated to be near on 2 billion. This does not include all the other funding that has, and still is, being pumped into all the other special grants and education programmes etc. Plus a lot of the payout involves large business based franchises like forestry and fishing that is ongoing making profit for Maori, providing they dont stuff it up for themselves via mismanagement.
All contracts, like any other contract, can become null in void, if one or other party stuff up, or be open to be redrafted if agreed by all parties concerned. The parties today is more about the NZ population and what the majority of what they want. It will come down to a referendum by the public, when the time comes. The thing I most love about majority rule is this; If the majority get it wrong, then its the majority that suffers the most for making a bad choice. Cool eh. |
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By: poppiemcmillan
29/09/2008
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| I couldn't agree more. It is racist in the worst way - i thought we learnt something from south africa - from Germany - but maybe not. One people - lots of views but all on an equel footing. :) |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| Wasullivan: The Asians can't ask for anything different because they did not sign the Treaty-or did they? some say that Maori headed out from what is known as Taiwan |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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| wassullivan: Majority rules is the simple way of making decisions. Pity the Maori werent given that luxury at the time the Maori seats were created. They were the majority but the Pakeha prohibited them in every possible way...imagine not even being allowed to vote in your own country. |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan:
Surely the fact that Maori would not get into Parliament because they would not vote for the Maori Party is the fault of the Maori, rather than anything else?
According to the last Census 14% of people identified themselves as Maori. That would be more than enough to get the Maori Party into government. However your arguement would imply that not enough Maori actually require any specific representation, they are happy with the general representation they get with their local MP and Party vote.
If that is the case then it makes the case for removing the Maori seats even more powerful as it means those seats represent a signifigantly higher % of Maori than those who would actually vote for them. |
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By: abrahambent
29/09/2008
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| Simply put No they shouldn't be abollished. I for one am Maori, some in there (so ive herd) are um... idiots to the least, but thats what politics is all about! |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| Wasullivan: contracts can be changed by willing partners for sure - I somehow don't think Maori are stuffing up with their ongoing profit making alot have good management practices in places and are going ahead - if it comes down to a referendum from the public then what? Maori still need advocates to effectively participate in issues that affect them regards Art 2. It's not about majority rule it's about upholding a contract |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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| The reality is that if the Maori seats were removed, the only ones who could be blamed for lack of representation in Government is Maori. If enough Maori want representation in Government then the votes to the Maori party would be enough to get them into Parliament along side the Greens, Act and other minor parties. |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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| chrisphoenix - dont forget about the media who thrive on stirring up ill-feelings about Maori. Sex, South Auckland and Maori issues always sell newspapers in NZ |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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| and the reality is Pakeha have been trying to get rid of the Maori seats they created (for their own racist reasons) since 1902. It aint gonna happen. |
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