By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Jakfeb
A very intelligent post you presented.
Maori are in very real danger of loosing, or alienating what ever support they have, or imagine to have, from every other ethnic group that are entitled to call themselves New Zealanders, not just Pakeha New Zealanders, if Maori dont get their act together and use the payouts wisely to stand on their own feet. Like I say, most of us dont mind the settlements, so long as there is an end in sight.
I am 52 years old. I am fifth generation Kiwi. Ive lived and worked all over NZ, from top to bottom, and most places in-between. I am not anti Maori one bit. I have to say the biggest racists I have come across, are modern, young, radical Maoris who think everyone else owes them a living based on grievance for the past. Half of these are less than half Maori so go figure. Glad to see your not one of them. |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| The Maori Seats: I have got off track - those in the Maori seats are those who are there to protect the interests of Maori. It is up to the people to decide who of those will do the job best. There are some who might be happy with their local MP fine but there are many others not alienated from their interests. Maybe those happy with anyone have not inherited so don't care. |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan you should be more clear.
Its up the the MAORI people who are in those seats. The general public don't get a say in the issue although it does directly affect them. |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| Was: Maori pay for Maori in NZ - even after dole payments, treaty settlements, funding, scholarships etc they are still in credit |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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| Chrisan, do you have anything to back your stats up? |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| Phoenix: the general public does get a say through their appointed agents and those interested to turn up to the meetings |
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By: chrisan555@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| Yes a fine article written by Helen Clark and published in the MANA magazine |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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So the Maori get an equal say in both Maori AND National issues whereas everyone gets a say in National and a minor say in Maori issues.
Not racist aye |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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| OMG Wassullivan - "if Maori dont get their act together and use the payouts wisely to stand on their own feet". How could you make such a judgamental superior statement? You are probably one of those people who gobbled up the media hype about Tainui and their failed $43 million investment...but sympathised with Air NZ who lost over $100 million in the same month and had to bailed out by the Government. |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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| chris sullivan - tell me why the Maori seats were created? For the good of Maori? Hell no, they were created by Pakeha for the most racist reasons of all...so why are you moaning? |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget
People like you keep harking on about Pakeha in power. Wow, I can believe it. Pakeha are not in power. New Zealanders are. Its New Zealander Bums that fill the seats in Parliament, and as every other ethnic group gain their feet in this country. We will see a lot more mixed representation of races in Parliament, elected to be there because the majority agree with what ever they have to say. Give NZ a chance. We are the youngest democracy in the Commonwealth. I recone we are holding our own weight considering our size and geographical location. We should all be proud to take on America and say Stuff off with your Nuclear. We should be proud we led the way globally, with being the first to giving woman the vote etc, etc.
I truly believe NZ will see a Maori New Zealander as Prime Minister before I die.
If that person is worth voting for, dont worry, the majority, including me, will vote them in. Boy what a party that will be eh. Check out whats happening in America right now. Mind you they are 250 years ahead of us, but the rest of the world catches on fast to whatever America does. It didnt take long for Hip Hop to get here eh. |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget:
The establishment of MÄori seats came about in 1867 with the MÄori Representation Act, drafted by Napier Member of Parliament (MP) Donald McLean. Parliament passed the Act only after lengthy debate. Many conservative MPs, most of whom considered MÄori "unfit" to participate in government, opposed MÄori representation in Parliament, while some of the more radical MPs (such as James FitzGerald, who had proposed allocating a third of Parliament to MÄori) regarded the concessions given to MÄori as insufficient. In the end the setting up of MÄori seats separate from existing seats assuaged conservative opposition to the bill - conservatives had previously feared that MÄori would gain the right to vote in general electorates, thereby forcing all MPs (rather than just four MÄori MPs) to take notice of MÄori opinion.
Before this law came into effect, no direct prohibition on MÄori voting existed, but other indirect prohibitions made it extremely difficult for MÄori to exercise their theoretical electoral rights. The most significant problem involved the property qualification - in order to vote, one needed to possess a certain value of land. MÄori owned a great deal of land, but they held it in common, not under individual title, and under the law, only land held under individual title could count towards the property qualification. Donald McLean explicitly intended his bill as a temporary measure, giving specific representation to MÄori until they adopted European customs of land ownership. However, the MÄori seats lasted far longer than the intended five years, and remain in place today.
The first MÄori woman MP was Iriaka Ratana, who succeeded her late husband Matiu Ratana in 1949.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maori_Seats
I dont see anything in there that says Maori seats were created for the benefit of Pakeha or for the purposes of "controlling" Maori. If anything a lot of people didn't want them created in the first place. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan
The Crown do not speak for NZ, The Crown lost political power in Briton yonks ago. And has very little power here apart from being some out dated figurehead. NZ has since ratified the Crowns importance even further be withdrawing from the House of Lords etc. If it wasnt for this Maori treaty issue we are all doing our best to deal with, we might already be a Republic by now. |
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By: autotarget
29/09/2008
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chris phoenix you dont see anything racist in the fact that history shows us that the development of a separate electoral system for Maori was a control mechanism devised by the colonial government to contain the Maori vote. For example the General roll was still known as the European roll until 1975, which suggests that voting on the general roll was originally a race based privilege benefiting the settler class - NOT the Maori.
In 1867, when the seats were created, Maori could have easily swamped the votes of settlers, especially in the North Island electorates. To mitigate this risk Maori were allocated a mere four seats in a 99-seat government to represent the Northern, Southern, Eastern and Western Maori constituencies. Additionally, Maori were not permitted to vote in a secret ballot until 1938. This was 68 years after secret ballots were introduced for European electorates. Up until this time Maori were required to give their vote either by show of hands or verbally.
But you keep moaning about how hard done by and generous the European were, and how grateful maori should be for our devious privileges.
P.S If I wanted to google the Maori seats, I would have done it myself |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan
My box of fluffy birds, Maori dont have the monopoly on conservation issues, like wanting a clean green back yard for future generations. Maori dont need to own the foreshore to ensure we all have access to the beaches. We all want the same sorts of things. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| I could have said My God!!! but Im an Athiest. lol |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget:
Given that you (as far I'm aware) are not channeling the spirit of the creators of the Maori seats I dont think your really in a position to state for a fact the intentions behind them.
What happened in the past is irrelevant anyway. If the Maori seats were created, as in your opinion, to control Maori then they should be happy to see them gone as that form of 'control' will be over.
You keep brining up history as if its actually relevant today.
Whats relevant today is that New Zealand is a multicultural society in which all cultures should receive equal rights and representations. This is not happening with the continuation of the Maori seats as it does give Maori a guarenteed representation while other cultures have to represent themsevles in other ways.
Maori make up 14% of the population as per the last Census. Asians make up 9% of the population. Should Asians not have a guarenteed 10% representation in Parliament as well, after all they are part of New Zealands culture now. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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| Jezz, you guys, I can see heaps of post ahead addressed to me, Im still on the second to last page trying to catch up. Phew. I will only reply to posts that I dont require me to repeat myself from now on. |
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By: chris_phoenix_nz
29/09/2008
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On that note I shall retire for the night.
If the debate is still ongoing in the morning you will no doubt see my name popping up.
Have a good one all. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan
As a significant part of NZ population and growing, the Asians can start to ask for things by shear numbers of who may vote Asian representatives into Govt including others who may vote for the same things. The face of NZ will be entirely different in the next 50 years. The hope is that there will be balance. The concept that one sixteenth Maori can call themselves Maori on the electoral role, is part of giving Maori that balance to build up the numbers. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget
wassullivan: Majority rules is the simple way of making decisions. Pity the Maori werent given that luxury at the time the Maori seats were created. They were the majority but the Pakeha prohibited them in every possible way...imagine not even being allowed to vote in your own country.
Crying over spilt milk will not fix the issues. We are finding solutions so we can all move on. Why be stuck in the past? |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan
Wasullivan: contracts can be changed by willing partners for sure - I somehow don't think Maori are stuffing up with their ongoing profit making alot have good management practices in places and are going ahead - if it comes down to a referendum from the public then what? Maori still need advocates to effectively participate in issues that affect them regards Art 2. It's not about majority rule it's about upholding a contract
The contract, in any other sense of the word, would be null in void given what happened 30 after is was signed. It wasnt. Why not? I dont know. But it should have been. Its an out-dated, hastily drafted, ill advised, dishonoured document. Why are some Maori so scared of change? Why not fight for something better that includes all of modern NZ? Why keep attacking Pakeha? Its not about just Pakeha anymore. Its about every other ethnicity, paying for stuff they walked into, by coming here. Dont forget to thank them too for being so patient. Watch out for the majority collective voice when they say, enough is enough. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget
chrisphoenix - dont forget about the media who thrive on stirring up ill-feelings about Maori. Sex, South Auckland and Maori issues always sell newspapers in NZ
Dont forget about the stirrers who like to incite racism on these threads with abusive, ill-informed comments too. Everyone is pushing their political barrow on threads like these including you and me, only most of us prefer sensible debate over fisticuffs. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Autotarget
and the reality is Pakeha have been trying to get rid of the Maori seats they created (for their own racist reasons) since 1902. It aint gonna happen.
I bet you my pension it does happen within the next 7 - 10 years. NZ has no other long term solution to fixing todays problems. A lot of Maori leaders are saying so too. Read what Keys said today in the news and take more note of what the majority are saying. |
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By: wasullivan@xtra.co.nz
29/09/2008
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Chrisan
Was: Maori pay for Maori in NZ - even after dole payments, treaty settlements, funding, scholarships etc they are still in credit
Thats exactly why Maoridom is loosing favour with the majority. But the majority that are paying for past mistakes made by others, are the very same majority that will always have the final say on your future if you cant see past grievance mode. Most Kiwis are not stupid. We know there will not be an end till we start all over again with something new, like becoming a republic. I can hardly wait. |
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