By: kiwiexpat34
4/05/2009
11:53 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| At any time since 1948 Israel has been ready for peace, if Arab hostiles would simply desist. Every new round of violence which has occurred finds its roots in ARAB PROVOCATION. The occupied territories are the current EXCUSE only. The real agenda of Arab extremists was and still is to eliminate Israel altogether. To WIPE IT OFF THE MAP. Why should Israel co-operate with people of this mindset? Why should Israel respond to UN resolutions to disengage with this threat hanging over it. It is time the UN got real as to what the tiny nation of Israel is really up against. |
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By: paerina
4/05/2009
11:59 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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ADDRESS ARAB ISSUES
Fatah... West Banks
Hamas ...Gaza
A full-scale agreement to reunite both territories geographically and politically, unify and de-factionalise security services and broaden the PLO appears out of reach.
The Islamists can boast of their resolve and resilience But they also bumped up against painful realities, notably much of the world’s unwillingness to deal with Hamas even if that means leaving Gazans to fend for themselves.
Focus...
Encourage the Quartet Special Envoy and UN Special Envoy to meet with Hamas members serving in a unified government.
Pressure all relevant parties to reach agreement on opening the crossings, a ceasefire, a prisoner exchange and a unified government. |
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By: paerina
5/05/2009
12:00 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| kiwi pat you think by capitalising truth makes it so? |
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By: paerina
5/05/2009
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Your posts are reactionary..
they lack conviction.. have you noticed this thread goes straight to the heart of a solution
NOT repetitious rhetoric.
HAMAS THREAD I revisted... |
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By: paerina
5/05/2009
12:06 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| move forward=====> |
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By: kiwiexpat34
5/05/2009
12:54 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Hello Paerina
"Your posts are reactionary.. they lack conviction."
Sorry. I've been deliberately toning my posts down and exercising restraint from the passion which I could be pouring into this.
". .have you noticed this thread goes straight to the heart of a solution. NOT repetitious rhetoric."
All I have seen is repetition ad nauseam from you guys and no solution at all except Israel give in to those who seek to destroy her.
I can see that you remain convinced that Israel is the sole cause of everything, that Israel is the only aggressor, that the problem which began in Biblical times would be solved if only Israel would vacate the land it occupied in 1967. Well from where I stand I can see perfectly well why Israel is very reluctant to accept this.
And the wonder of it is. . . that can't you see it also!
I fear that you and Inbound have become so bogged down in the minutiae of who said what back in the political past that you have lost sight of the real picture. Sure, much has been said and done by Israeli leaders which has not been helpful. But far more has been said and done which has been constructive in trying to work for a lasting solution. Focus on this for a change. Acknowledge the FACT that the peace process has repeatedly been stymied by terrorist-acts against Israel, always at the crucial moment. A very different picture to the one you are repetitively pushing of endemic Israeli aggression.
Why not, for a change, take someone on the other side like Yasser Arafat, and focus on some of the incredibly unhelpful statements he has made over the decades.
You are (both) simply coming across as paranoid, misinformed Israel-bashers.
Goodnight. Catch you again sometime. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
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| Kiwiexpat...you are totally making Israel blameless and unprovocative and laying the blame solely at Arab feet. That is your delusion. You fly in the face of statements made by David Ben Gurion and Jabotinsky and Moshe Dayan. Since the Zionist arrival in the twenties it was there stated intent to drive the Arabs out of that territory and that is what they did. They began attacking Arabs and forcing them out of what became Israel proper. If you like I will repost the David Ben Gurion statements right up to 1948 if you like. Time for you to accept the reality. The Arabs did not accept the state of Israel at its inception because the Arabs knew only too well what Israels and the Zionists intent was....to drive them out. Thankfully that is now being readdressed and Israel will be confined to its original borders as per tha Oslo Process,Annapolis agreement and the Arab Peace Plan.......AIPAC has now swung behind America so Israels support in America is ended. The two state solution will happen regardless of Zionist intent. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
1:15 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Acknowledge the FACT that the peace process has repeatedly been stymied by terrorist-acts against Israel, always at the crucial moment.
79% of all ceasefires have been broken by Israel. Rockets were not fired from Gaza in 2005 until Israel broke the ceasefire and then refused to lift the blockade that is still in place today. You conveniently ignore the war crimes ISRAEL has deliberately incurred by imposing the blockade. The fact is the PA has almost completed ALL of its requirements asked of it under the peace process and Israel has done nothing but violate. The settlement expansion being the more obvious and the now deliberate annexation of East Jerusalem and demolitions of Palestinian houses. Biblical history has no legality in International Law. Biblical history did not create the modern day state of Israel....International Law and the UN did. and it is the only UN Resolution that Israel has ever complied with. Had Israel complied with Resolutions 242 and 338 at the time she was asked we would not be having to enforce it now. Israel has brought all her problems on herself by her own choices. It is the world who is now assisting her to continue to exist by getting Israel to move on the process. Ariel Sharon admitted himself that the disengagement process was a deliberate attempt to stall the peace process. Olmert was talking peace yet behind the scenes spent two years planning the onslaught on Gaza called CastLead. How is that working toward peace? Hamas was offering a solution and a ceasefire prior to Cast Lead and Olmert ignored them. Israel sabotaged the Egyptian brokered ceasefire agreement by changing the rules when an agreement had been reached by putting Shalits release as a pre requisite when Israel knew damned well that was a seperate issue and that Hamas had agreed to discuss that after the ceasefire agreement. So Kiwiexpat to blame the Arabs is absolute bs on your part. And avoidance of the obvious facts. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
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| Israel by maintaining illegal occupation of the Palestinian Territories and the GBolan Heights and by illegally building settlements and by illegally maintaining a blockade thus subjecting ALL palestinians to collective Punishment within Gaza is under International Law officially termed and addressed as the belligerent aggressor, Palestinians under the fourth Geneva Convention have a right to oppose the belligerent aggressor by use of arms. Israel by maintaining an illegal occupation cannot claim self defence as she is the illegal occupier and therefore the belligerent aggressor. Now if you don't like that terminology Kiwiexpat then take it up with Ban Ki Moon or Helen Clark. |
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By: kiwiexpat34
5/05/2009
1:32 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Hello again Inbound.
I accept a degree of blame on Israel's part, but given the circumstances it has been under since 1948 I think it is understandable.
Statements by Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky and Dayan belong to a large degree in the past. Why do you keep dragging them up as relevant to today, while paying no equivalent attention to hostile and inflammatory PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syrian and Iranian statements over the same time period?
Granted it was the intent of early zionists to claim the whole area for themselves. As was the intent of the Arabs. But since 1948 you will notice that such voices have dwindled in Israel and the idea has no mainstream support now. This is in contrast to the continued stance of Arab extremists, some of them national leaders, who still seek to destroy Israel.
The only way Israel can agree to any further withdrawals is if it can make genuine peace-deals as it did with Egypt and Jordan. This was not possible with trickster Yasser Arafat. It might be with Abbas, but he holds no power over the current aggressors who are not interested in peace-for-land. You are naive if you believe they are. If the two-state solution is imposed as things stand then Israel will find itself right back where it was in 1967, with hostile armies easily able to attack.
And though I have been wary of arguing down this path, I think your confidence in the ability of other powers to impose their solutions on Israel is misplaced. The hand of God has been distinctly with that nation since its inception in 4000-odd BC. What has happened since has uncannily followed biblical prophecies and I think you would do well to watch this space quietly rather than make rash pronouncements you may one day have to swallow. |
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By: kiwiexpat34
5/05/2009
1:37 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Inbound: Here's a site that might interest you. Seems to present a balanced approach.
http://www.mideastweb.org/peaceplans.htm |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
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| One simple way to discount your assertions that Israel is not the aggressor is to tally up the refugees and dead and wounded on both sides in 61 years and then tally up the war crimes charges. Israel has the least refugees and the least wounded and the most war crimes charges and broken ceasefires more often and demolished more Palestinian homes. They have been investigated for more serious infringements than Palestinian Resistance groups have. ALL I personally want is Israel to abide by its International obligations under Law. It is not a case of my hating Israel. I dislike immensely what Israel has created and the unnecessary pain and suffering Israel has caused in the name of Zionism and its goals which can only be viewed as similar to Germany WW2. No-one is allowed to criticize Israel at all because they choose to sit in victim mode still 63 years after the end of WW2. They need to get over it and move on. They have worn the record out and people...too many people now...see the truth of what they have been doing hence the drastic fall in support for Israel. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
1:58 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| Fairly wishy washy glossary of truth mixed with facts left out such as the fact that Israel has ignored the Arab Peace Plan since 2002.....Israel created Hamas as a viable opposition to Arafat by supplying Hamas with funding for arms etc to topple Arafat and thus undermine the Oslo accords. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
1:59 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| mideast web has no background details on who funds the site so I will stick with the UN and other reputable non Israeli biased sources. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
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| At the end of the day it comes down to International Law and I am happy for it to be resolved under that umbrella as is currently being done. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
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The hand of God has been distinctly with that nation since its inception in 4000-odd BC. What has happened since has uncannily followed biblical prophecies and I think you would do well to watch this space quietly rather than make rash pronouncements you may one day have to swallow.
So you are a Zionist supporter...are you Jewish also? |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
2:10 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| If your God condones what Israel has been doing then I and many others do not find your god a loving God. Or maybe you are under the illusion your God still supports you. Maybe the fact that the Two State Solution is being imposed is Gods will for Israel. God speaks through man. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
2:13 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| Do you differentiate between the acts of Irgun and Sterngang and Hagganah and Hamas....they all sought or seek a state of their own. Why deem one extremist. |
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By: inbound39
5/05/2009
2:21 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| Seems to me Kiwiexpat you are saying that as long as everyone agrees with Israel and does as Israel wants then there will be peace. Peace is by negotiation not dictatorship. Why cannot Israel abide by its obligations? Why is Israel exempt from Resolutions made by the UN when Israel calls on the UN to force Iran to comply with Resolutions? Why can Israel illegally build nuclear weapons and yet it denies others to do it legally? Maybe instead of upsetting the Arabs from the onset Israel should have concentrated on making friends and its security today would not have been so under threat. The Palestinian jews were living peacefully with the Arabs prior to the Zionists arrival and then the Zionists forced the other jews to follow their goals.The Zionists may now find the incentive to acquire some humility. A trait that had they used would not see them so under threat now. |
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By: paerina
6/05/2009
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Kiwipat
PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas, Syrian and Iranian represent the Palestine that is looking for autonomy and freedom of Occupation.
To ask us why we aren't giving them 'equal' recognition for their 'terrorist' activities is because we are only interested in the present and you are claiming that this thread supports terrorists.
Why I keep asking you to keep the debate moving forward. Only you are harping on pre-48, '67' BIBLE dates even, when even modern day Israel are over it already. The only time we make all these 'dated' references is to counteract the use of those dates to inform you.. the conflict has fault on BOTH sides. You are simply wanting to place blame and support the ZIONIST's Israel for JUST jews program. ..
Understood?
************************* ************************* *
Hi there Inbound and JJ ...hope you both have a great day today :) |
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By: paerina
6/05/2009
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| freedom from an 'OPPRESSIVE' occupation |
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By: inbound39
6/05/2009
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Kiwiexpat....this is where we are at.....this is ALL that is on offer for Israel....this is what is going to happen....get used to it! It is long overdue.
"Israel has to work for a two state-solution. You're not going to like my saying this, but not build more settlements, dismantle existing outposts and allow Palestinians freedom of movement ... and access to economic opportunity," Biden told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). |
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By: inbound39
6/05/2009
8:51 am Yahoo! Profile:
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| And while we are on the subject...if Israel wants a totally jewish state...that is to say with nil non jewish citizens then maybe the rest of the world needs to re-evaluate their immigration policies and passport allocations for jews. If they want a racist state then maybe they all need to go and live their in two hundred floor apartment blocks a metre apart. Israel is absolutely ridiculous with its needs and wants and is in no way in sync with how the world is today. |
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By: smoothsailing@xtra.co.nz
6/05/2009
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| Who gives a toss about HAMAS THEY ARE TERRORISTS AND CHILD KILLERS!! |
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By: smoothsailing@xtra.co.nz
6/05/2009
2:24 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| 173 posts on this thread 150 by inbound 23 by others tweedle dee and tweedle dumber |
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