By: rugger.dawg
27/11/2007
2:44 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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I agree that Henry's record in NPC/Super Rugby is superior to Deans - however both have excellent records so all we're doing there is splitting hairs. I've heard enough about Deans having already been part of a failed campaign though. Sure he was assistant to Mitchell but the way I remember that tenure Mitchell was very much THE coach so I somewhat doubt he would have been lead around by Deans. And there is simply no way Deans as the sole assistant coach to Mitchell would have had as much a) input or b) responsibility as Henry as the head coach even with two assistants. The term is assistant coach, not co-coach.
In the four years since his own WC disappointment the Crusaders under Deans have made it to the semifinals every year, been beaten in one final and won the competition twice. All that talk about Super Rugby having little bearing on tests - rubbish - it's the closest competition in intensity to tests and the best yardstick of coaching ability we have in NZ. If we ignore performances in Super Rugby for selecting the AB coach what are we left with? Air NZ Cup? Only current or previous AB coaches? Give me a break.
And as for Deans considering the Wallabies job. It certainly left the NZRU in no doubt that there was a crossroads coming up and either they chose him for the top job or he'd take that next step up elsewhere. If I was in his shoes I'd have done the same thing. As I recall Henry went off to coach Wales when the door to the AB job wouldn't open despite his credentials. |
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By: phil_777h
27/11/2007
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I don’t think Henry is this amazing coach so many people seem to think. He made a mess of it when he coached the Lions, With Wales he wasn’t overly impressive, and in fact many of the Welch players were very pleased to see him go.
He had more assistance and money than any previous AB coach but still had our worst ever world cup, and we looked bad in the other WC games not just against France, the error rate was shocking.
Why wouldn’t Deans go to Aussie when not considered here, Henry and Hansen had both coached Wales.
Deans helped Mitchell, but Mitchell was in charge, you can’t blame Deans for Mitchell mistakes. But even so their world cup was a darn sight than “not my fault Henry”. |
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By: putionz
27/11/2007
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| by the way don't bother breaking your tenures down into months as that aspect of your argument is stymied by so many variables all you will end up doing is proving the RWC the curiousity that it conistently proves to be. |
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By: putionz
27/11/2007
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| so these are the grounds upon which you think Deans should take over? No problem although I would beg to differ in terms of Deans record in comparison to that of Henry's in the All Black Frame. You do realise that Deans was already part of a failed campaign where there were only two people on that coaching staff. Thus it makes sense that he would have a) had more input b) had more reposnsibilty. Just something for you to consider. Soeomn has also pointed out that he considered the Aussie job. What's that about Phil? |
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By: phil_777h
27/11/2007
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It actually averages out to about 2.8 years, but I would need to add the months up to get it exact.
Henry has had a go, Deans has a much better record than Henry had before he was AB coach, why shouldn’t he be allowed a chance, he will be gone for good if he doesn’t get a go. |
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By: wehekasna
27/11/2007
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Why are the "Powers that Be" the ones who don't cop any blame for anything, the NZRU, going to take so long to make a decision? Get on with it! they would know full well who they have in mind for the job, now they are saying it may take untill after Christmas??
I'm very suspicious of their motives for all this shagging around, but for Christs sake tell us who its going to be so they can get on with the job. It will finish this particular argument if nothing else.
By the way uti, last time I looked everyone was intitled to an opinion? even great players like Buck and Griz! Emotive....come on! well maybe Griz slightly, but not Buck.
Thats just my opinion though. |
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By: putionz
27/11/2007
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| Phil looking at your list it appears that the numbers average out to 4 years anyway. What that list tells me is that rankings going into that tournament counts for nothing. In respect to New Zeland the only thing that has changed has been the reigns after each campaign. On this point alone I initiated this thread just to get opinion and it seems a lot of people are looking at what we've consistently done. In terms of your closing statement I'm presuming that you're not from Auckland. That point is irrelevant as we were in the early days of kicking people to the kerb on the back of the ABs failing to secure the cup and not on the back end of a number of years that was beginning to compound this in the public mind |
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By: krishnahaerewa
27/11/2007
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I remember that morning when we played France in the quater final very well 76 min i knew we out of the world cup 1st thing that went though my head wasn't get rid of G Henry it was what the hell were the players thinking we had the game game if we did a drop kick used our brains not our brawn when the players are on the feild G Henry can't do nothing it is up to the players i think yeah he may have done a couple of things wrong but that doesnt mean he should get the boot I don't think R Deans should get the job what happen to canterbury this year nothing lost everything they owned and pride to. We have to think about getting rid of the selectors or some of them we have to think about getting rid of W Smith and get a better a black team we need No affence to R Mccaw but we need some leadership not someone that is going to give penlitys away.
KEEP G HENRY GIVE HIM A SECOND CHANCE BECAUSE HE WILL BRING THE 2011 WORLD CUP HOME |
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By: phil_777h
27/11/2007
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Have your say by all means, but that argument that we are always wrong by changing unsuccessful coaches I don’t buy at all.
When you look at the stats for the 6 previous coaches of winning world cup teams only Woodward has had more than 4 years leading up to the cup.
Here's the stats,
Brian Lochore, New Zealand 1985 - 1987 WC 2yrs
Bob Dywer, Australia 1988 - 1999 WC 3yrs
Kitch Christie, South Africa 1994 - 1995 WC 1yrs
Rob MacQueen, Australia 1998 - 1999 WC 2yrs
Clive Woodward, England 1997 - 2003 WC 6yrs
Jake white, South Africa 2004 -2007 WC 3yrs
That proves if that 4 years should be easily enough time for a coach to win a world cup, Henry had a full 4 years, more than a lot of other AB’s coaches have had in the last 20 years or so.
The one I would definitely have kept though is Laurie Mains, who only lost in the cup final in extra time by 3, but of course we all know the Aucklanders wouldn’t have had that would they, where were they with their arguments about wanting continuity then? |
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By: putionz
27/11/2007
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| Elijah is the world cup everything to you? I think it is to a lot of people including a bunch of old has beens who seem to think that it is the end all and be all to every Rugby loving person in NZ. Well I think it isn;t. It would be nice but hey Henry had great number of wins and other triumphs that none of those other countries that went furtehr at RWC'07 ever achieved in their seasons leading ip to that tournament. |
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By: elijah2005@xtra.co.nz
27/11/2007
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The Rugby world cup.
In life, there are only winners and loosers, this rugby coaching panel fall into the latter category. Best you move on and give someone else a go.
Disillusioned fan. |
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By: elijah2005@xtra.co.nz
27/11/2007
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The Rugby world cup.
In life, there are only winners and loosers, this rugby coaching panel fall into the latter category.
Disillusioned fan. |
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By: putionz
27/11/2007
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yes Phil I would like Henry retained but as we all know that is all left to the wisdom (or whatever you wish to call it) of the selection panel. Last time I checked we were still living in a free New Zealand. I've pretty much related my opinions on all of the sound bytes that have been served up since the failure of this campaign. Why do I want him retained. well n the back of a successful four years I would like to see some coninutity somewhere within the organisation. We seem to clean everything out when we don't returna result at this tourney which to me is akin to cutting of our noses to spite our faces. This is the only thing I could see that stoood out like a sore thumb when I looked back. As you well know I proffered shoudl we try something different in order to see if we get a different result? Simple as that/ But the loks of your posting you've probably been swept up by all the emotional claptrap that is out there. eg. Sheflord/Wylie
At the end of the day using "judge me by my results" as grounds to dump anybody would really indicate little thinking or consideration in decision making if this were the case.
Either way what happens happens. It's just my opinion. |
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By: phil_777h
26/11/2007
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Why do you want old biddy Henry back, so he can stuff it up again next time and say it wasn't his fault again.
remember "judge me by my world cup results" |
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By: putionz
25/11/2007
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| who knows "D" at the end of the day I wouldn't like to see Deans hpopping in there taking credit for sh!t he had nothing to do with and I do think of this team as successful in they were not a total failure as what has been made of them on the back of yet another failed campaign. It really has become the bottom line hasn't it. I'm sure English fans would trade places and the moaners in this country would feel good if they came second...nah I did't think so which is why most of their argumant is about as poohole as putting Deans in charge. Someone suggested getting him on-board which to me has it's merit and probably a nice medium but I doubt the NZRU are capable. |
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By: dachiropractor17
25/11/2007
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bro im saying that cos ive followed auckland and the blues since a very young age...and mate ever since henry left the post in 1998 quite frankly auckland turned to crap... those players that played in the amateur era into the professional era were the best around ie. fitzy, zinny, iceman, spencer etc etc etc...
what makes it better even tho auckland dominated the 80's and 90's they still had players from unions who werent that flash back then ie. buncey, little, wilson, kronfeld, ian jones, os, jonah, gallagher, shuster, etc etc and they all deserved their place in the ab's.
turn to 2002 - and when u see guys like caleb ralph,that centre mark robinson(who was preferred ahead of umaga!!)darryl gibson, etc etc running onto the field ahead of jonah, umaga, alatini, wilson, cullen etc etc it made me think - is that deans or is that mitchells own doing?
we all know the answer..... |
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By: putionz
25/11/2007
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| Bro irckon you may have just come up with a marekting dream. Only issue could be existing contratcs and the dsire for Henry or Deans to take part in it but if they did wow can you imagine how heated things would get in the comp. Let's hope no pull-through suit reads this and decides to steal your idea. ha ha man that would definitley make things interesting! |
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By: dachiropractor17
24/11/2007
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hey hows this....
if nucifora goes to the wallabies.... and if henry loses his all blacks coaching post....
why not put henry in charge of the blues...leave deans at the crusaders and see who wins the super 14... then pick the all backs coach!! ahahahahaha
but hey...anything is possible
just ask caleb ralph how he got picked ahead of jonah!!lol |
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By: putionz
24/11/2007
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| I'll buy that for a dollar. SO many contirbutors up on this thread making it a red and black thing whiach for the most part was suppoesed to be about the blac thing. Dont' hate brethren but the facts are when Blue rugby is strong Black rugby is strong. The alternative? well you've already had that and we know what that spells! Henry is renowned as a control freak but don;t imagine for a minute that it was an autonomy that ran this outfit. If you want to single Henry out then a he should have been given sole responsibilty and I reckon the safety net for blame has always been the NZRU's postion which is why they would never let Henry have sole coach role for the ABs. b) if the NZRU said one guy in charge and if he fails he's on the psot then I have very little doubt we would ahve this conversation as for one Tana may have still been involved Piri and Ma'a would have gone and more importantly that emotional phuckin' selection of Thorne etc. would not have been given the time of day...Chur! |
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By: gvtstkwi07
23/11/2007
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| iF Robbis deans gets in ,he will be inheiriting an excellent team which Henry had developed which i think were one year away from peaking to their best.ThE rotation system was only embraced in the last year and all honesty it takes two years to reap its ultimate rewards. |
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By: dachiropractor17
23/11/2007
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exactly....crusader land hit the bigtime at exactly the same time henry left auckland and nz...yes the blues lost the 1998 super 12 final to the crusaders but they too had lost zinny and fitzy..... after that auckland went downhill. henry did well at wales - but those ungrateful bastards turned on him when results didnt go there way....so he returned to auckland then guess what?? auckland rose to the top once again!!
we all know deans didnt like andrew mehrtans and treated him like crap...he helped cut cullen put - randall - oliver - alatini etc!!!!!! and who did he replace them with?? ben blair caleb ralph darryl gibson mark robinson !!! oh wow they strike so much fear in opponents
2002 crusaders were unbeaten i hear??? they gloat on and on about that but guess what? the blues under henry were unbeaten in 1997 - and so were the all blacks!!! hmmmmm but i guess the crusaders dont wanna hear that |
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By: rugbycolumn
22/11/2007
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I've been amazed by the lack of outrage at the world cup loss.
Henry is an absolutely brilliant coach whose record speaks so much louder than the Cantabury brigade who think that just because the Crusaders win the Super comp every second year or so, they should get full control of the NZRU.
Look at New Zealands' world cup record since the 'mighty Crusaders' rose to the top in 1998 and you'll see how useful they really are to NZ rugby! |
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By: gvtstkwi07
22/11/2007
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deydey07 the players are angry at themselves,they are through senario after senario on what should have done different in that 80mns.They had the best preparartion and the best coaching staff we have had for years.
Ted is the man and he must stay for NZ ,he has heaps more to offer. |
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By: dachiropractor17
22/11/2007
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henry has to stay.... wayne smith did well with the crusaders even before robbie took over...robbies won the title 4 times out of 6 finals..hes been in charge of the crusdaers for 8 years....
henry won 4 npc titles - and u can add another 2 (2002,2003) when he came back from wales and was appointed technical advisor and helped take auckland back to the top
his 3 years in charge of the blues he made all 3 finals and won 2 of them. when he left - as we all know auckland turned to shit....when he had a chance tp help put the blues in 2003 they again won the super12 title...
that just proves hes the man to carry on coaching - the last thing we want is another wannabe in robbie deans
he'll bring the crusaders reserves to play in the all blacks ( remember darryl gibson in 2002!!!!) |
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By: deydey07
22/11/2007
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"Many of the players are bitter, angry, upset and resent this world cup so why would they wanna play for a coach who let them down wiv a game plan that was straight WRONG!!!!!"
That was a big call, who do you know players are feeling this way?? If they are then I guess all the worries about prefessionalism killing NZ rugby arent warranted because players are not yet fully professional, which is probably why they lose the "world cup" all the time.
I bet the Aussies will be fighting hell for leather to make sure a repeat of this years RWC doesnt happen again, where as in this country Henry seems to be the only person willing to try something different, everyone else just seems to be a sheep meandering through their mundane lives.
Keep Henry I say, now lets see if the powers that be HAVE the balls to try something different.
I say the rotation policy was good, because I reckon Henry was preparing NZ rugby for the mass exodus of players after the "world cup" it happens every time so now we are a little better of in terms of player "depth" (for lack of better word)
PEACE |
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